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Why the black church should support gay rights

Dennis W. Wiley | Posted June 18, 2008 12:18 AM


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The Black Church has been so poisoned by homophobia and heterosexism that the idea of it actually supporting gay rights seems oxymoronic. But Black churches are not monolithic and, although the vast majority of them denounce homosexuality as a sin, there are a few that do not. Covenant Baptist Church, a traditional African American congregation in Washington, DC that my wife, the Rev. Dr. Christine Y. Wiley, and I co-pastor, is one of those few. We believe that whereas homosexuality, as a sexual orientation, is not a sin, hypocrisy is. That is why Jesus says nothing about the former, but speaks volumes about the latter.

There are numerous publications now available that help us to understand that the few biblical passages once thought to express unequivocal condemnation of homosexuality have been grossly misinterpreted.  In fact, the more accurate translations of the Bible do not even mention the word, "homosexuality," a relatively new term.  And, while these passages condemn same-sex behavior that is violent, abusive, or believed at the time to result in ritual impurity, the scriptures do not explicitly address sexual intimacy between two loving individuals of the same gender. 

The question, then, is why has the Black Church become so hostile toward non-heterosexual persons and so vitriolic in its approach to the issue of homosexuality.  The reasons are varied and complex, and are associated with the historical intersection of racism and sexuality in America.  Suffice it to say here, however, that it is not the Bible, but socially-conditioned and culturally-infused interpretations of the Bible that account for the pervasive anti-gay sentiment within the Black Church.

That said, it is my opinion that the Black Church should support gay rights because homosexuals are human beings who deserve the same rights as heterosexuals.  These people did not choose their sexual orientation. They did not wake up one morning and say, "Oh, I think I'll be gay," any more than others of us woke up one morning and said, "Oh, I think I'll be straight." Despite what some may argue, their sexual orientation is an integral and immutable component of their identity. It is who they are and they could not change it even if they tried.

On a certain level, I believe that many if not most of us in the Black Church are aware of this, but it is too difficult and uncomfortable for us to go against the grain of what has been taught to and instilled in us all of our lives. It is much easier for the Black Church to bash or ignore gay people, while at the same time exploiting their tremendous gifts and talents, than it is to become a safe space in which they can realize their full, God-given potential without having to hide in the closet.

I support gay rights because the gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of love, not hate; a gospel of justice, not injustice; a gospel of inclusion, not exclusion; and a gospel of authenticity, not hypocrisy. Remember, Jesus spent the bulk of his time associating with those whom society rejected--i.e., the poor and the sick, the downcast and the outcast, the last, the lost, and the "least."  By the same token, those whom he most harshly challenged, criticized, and chastised included not only the rich and the elite, who disproportionately enjoyed the privileges of society, but also the religious hypocrites--i.e., people who pretended to be more holy, pious, and righteous than they actually were.

If, then, the Black Church is the True Church, why would it want to foster within its fellowship, as well as within the broader society, a culture of hypocrisy rather than a culture of authenticity and integrity?  But is that not exactly what the Black Church is guilty of doing when it (1) pretends that homosexuals do not exist, and (2) encourages them to pretend to be something they are not--i.e., not merely to tell a lie, but to live and, indeed, be a lie? 

While some resent the comparison of gay rights with civil rights, I agree with Julian Bond that "people of color ought to be flattered that our movement has provided so much inspiration for others . . ." In the spirit of Jesus Christ, Martin Luther King Jr., Coretta Scott King, and even the Declaration of Independence, the Black Church should support gay rights if one believes that all of God's children "are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, [and] that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Because the Black Church is comprised of a race of people who themselves have been, and still are, the victims of oppression, it should be the last institution in the world to condone the oppression of anyone else. For as King once said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."


Rev. Dennis W. Wiley, Ph.D., is the pastor of the Covenant Baptist Church in Washington, DC.
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Comments 103

Purl Gurl
2008-06-18 02:59:42
Rather frustrating to feel a need to research a black church, before commenting, to make sure I am not stepping into a Wright-Pfleger-Meeks-Farrakhan worship of Satan cult.

I am pragmatic. I tend not to mince my words.

No doubt Reverend Harry How would be quite surprised to learn how his church has so changed over the many years, changed to become one of the most progressive churches of America. Covenant Baptist enjoys quite the fascinating history.

Being raised a pagan American Indian provides me with an advantage of being able to regard organized religion and social issues with a pragmatic viewpoint. My perspective on homosexuality is this is nobody's business and this is a notion which is unworthy of discussion. A homosexual lifestyle causes no harm to our society, is not a threat to our moral values and certainly has no adverse effect on the everyday lives of Americans. Homosexuals are simply people like all the rest of us. Homosexuality should not be an issue which prompts me to write this is a topic unworthy of discussion. Personally, I have always found homosexuals to be very nice people who are typically productive and respectful members of our American culture.

What is an issue for me is organized religion making such an issue of homosexuality. I must interject I view organized religion, for the most part, to be the largest gathering of hypocrites to be found, noting mine is "most" not all religious organizations. Covenant Baptist over in Washington is clearly an exception being so all encompassing.

Problem is organized religion works at promulgating what are acceptable moral values and what are unacceptable moral values. In the case of my peoples, when we rejected Christian moral values, we were slaughtered by the tens of millions. Yes, I still harbor a grudge. History reflects moral values of my peoples are infinitely more pure and infinitely more in keeping with The Good than any moral values set by today's organized religions. History, in time, will also reflect this religious taboo on homosexuality is pervasive bigotry. This renders religion pure hypocrisy. Jesus informs us to treat all peoples with respect, this is all people, not some people. Of course this notion is tempered by our "eye-for-an-eye" philosophy but justice has nothing to do with a homosexual lifestyle, while law abiding.

The instant a minister jumps up on a pulpit and preaches about this sinful nature of homosexuality, I brand this congregation, worshipers of Satan. Clearly, such a display of hypocrisy cannot be that of truly God fearing peoples. This is the problem with religion, rampant hypocrisy.

I do not care about homosexuals, do not care in a sense they have no effect on my life, no effect on our family's life and should have no effect on anyone. Rather hypocritical righteous people hop into bed, turn on pornography, then turn-on each other, get all kinky crazy, then the next day rant about homosexuals being weird and kinky.

In my native tongue, we have no word for homosexuality. Most close expression is "ohoyo holba" which means "womanish" but this is not at all related to homosexual behavior rather is related to behavior of my female gender. However, many of our tribes do have an expression for those Anglos label homosexuals. This expression in my native tongue is "chukash haiyup" which means "twin spirit."

Those of us American Indians who are traditional, display great respect for twin spirits. We view these people as gifted by the spirits. Our Indian history reflects twin spirits often become shamans, healers and spiritual leaders. These twin spirits are escalated to positions of great respect and power. Marriage between same sex couples is highly respected by traditional American Indians. We revere those Anglos label homosexuals, often with contempt.

Quite the contrast, yes? In my culture, my traditional culture, those you folks call homosexuals we treat as people favored and gifted by the spirits. We traditional Indians are pagan, do not share your Christian morals and beliefs, yet we treat twin spirits with the greatest of respect and honor.

Rather challenging for you, the reader, to become aware we pagan Indians enjoy pure and good moral values while you Christians are well noted for your hypocrisy and hatred.

Perhaps, Reverend Wiley, you and your good wife should study up a bit on American Indian spirituality and introduce some of our ways to your congregation; we have respected twin spirits for thousands of years and still respect those so many Anglos label homosexuals, with certain dislike, if not hatred.

I am proud to be pagan. I am proud of my peoples. I am not so sure Black America can claim a similar true pride, least not do so with sincerity.

There is much research material available on the web for those readers who would like to learn more about American Indians and Twin Spirits. I suggest you do so; this may change your perspective about homosexuality. Simply google "native american homosexual" to find hundreds of thousands of links to our traditional ways and beliefs, about this topic.

Okpulot Taha
Choctaw Nation


Tandy
2008-06-18 12:01:30
I agree with everything you've said...its not fair that the bacl church forces these people to live a lie.

Mr. FAMU
2008-06-18 12:34:38
Are we talking about the same black church that I grew up in? Becuz if so you can keep dreaming. The black church will never embrace and live by the tenants of Christ. To many people need excuse to preach hate and intolerance. ITS NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

X-man
2008-06-18 14:01:56
No one makes anyone live a lie in 2008. If someone is foolish enough to waste their time at any church that condemns them every Sunday, its on them for staying. And I take offense at it being the 'black church' that is intolerant when all you have to do is look at the Catholic, and any other Christian church that feels the same way and are as vocal about it. If, you need to have a church home there are many welcoming congregations, including black ones, don't waste your time or money where you are not wanted or treated with respect. As for civil rights, I have no issue with all citizens, gay, straight or trisexual getting what should be granted as a citizen 100% equality under the law, but, its hardly the same as being treated like dirt based on skin color and its a cop out for those who say it is.

Purrfect10
2008-06-18 14:06:30
If all the gay people stopped going to church there would be.... *no one playing the instruments *no one in the choir *no one in the pulpit and I mean that, from experience!!!

Anders Branderud
2008-06-18 15:54:42
Hello! My name is Anders Branderud and I am from Sweden. You write: “I support gay rights because the gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of love, not hate; a gospel of justice, not injustice; a gospel of inclusion, not exclusion; and a gospel of authenticity, not hypocrisy. Remember, Jesus spent the bulk of his time associating with those whom society rejected--i.e., the poor and the sick, the downcast and the outcast, the last, the lost, and the "least." By the same token, those whom he most harshly challenged, criticized, and chastised included not only the rich and the elite, who disproportionately enjoyed the privileges of society, but also the religious hypocrites--i.e., people” Yes, the Jewish Bible surely argues that same-sex relations is forbidden. A purpose of a marriage between a Jewish is couple is to have children – and then to learn them Torah. That’s impossible in a homosexual relation. And yes – the only way to follow the Creator is to follow His Torah – His instruction manual. Who then was the historical “Jesus”? Did you know that the original “Matthew” was written in Hebrew and it’s called Hebrew Matityahu. It speaks about an Orthodox Jewish leader. The historical Ribi Yehoshua were a Pharisee. I am a follower of Ribi Yehoshua – Mashiakh – who practiced Torah including Halakhah with all his heart. He was born in Betlehem 7 B.C.E . His faher name was Yoseiph and mother’s name was Mir? yâm. He had twelve followers. He tought in the Jewish batei-haknesset (synagogues). Thousands of Jews were interested in His Torah-teachings. The “Temple” Sadducees (non-priests who bought their priest-ship in the “Temple” from the Romans, because they were assimilated Hellenist and genealogically non-priests acting as priests in the “Temple”; they were known by most 1st-century Jews as “Wicked Priests.” decided to crucify him. So they did - together with the Romans. His followers were called Netzarim (meaning offshoots [of a olive tree]) and they continued to pray with the other Jews in the synagogues. Christianity does not teach the teachings of Ribi Yehoshua. Ribi Yehoshuas teachings were pro-Torah. If you want to learn more click at our website www.netzarim.co.il -- than click at the lick "Christians"; click at my photo to read about what made my switch religion from Christianity to Orthodox Judaism. Anders Branderud Follower of Ribi Yehoshua in Orthodox Judaism

Dwayne ATL
2008-06-18 20:18:52
My pastor sent me this article. His son who is also a minister was married at this church. He got married on good ground.

Kevin Moss (aka "Flex")
2008-06-19 00:23:58
Reading this article tonight was very enlightening. I have an online ministry for Gay Christian men called BrothasNDaSpirit. It's a ministry that's designed to help those who deal with the struggle of reconciling their spirituality with their sexual orientation. When I hear of mainstream churches who are now joining the fight against homophobia all I can say is "Praise God." One thing That's clear and that is "God is Love." By the Looks of Rev. Wiley, He's exemplifying what all Black Pastors should be striving to do. Thank you for presenting this article and "be blessed."

Ramses
2008-06-19 08:07:28
Good article but as a fellow clergy men you did to get honest about half of the ministers being queens, and every knows it, and its ok as long as they hoe the party line which deprecates them, the choir directors and half of the finical contributing congregation.

NBJC CEO
2008-06-19 12:20:32
Excellent article. Thank you for speaking out. NBJC has worked with Black Churches across the country in an effort to both heal some of the wounds and to call attention to the damage done to our lives when we are condemed for living and speaking our truth. Your words are especially encouraging coming from the Baptist tradition. Keep up God's work.

Shabaka
2008-06-19 23:04:49
"...it should be the last institution in the world to condone the oppression of anyone else." Amen to that!! I'm an atheist but reading statements like these keep my faith in humanity even stronger!

Shabaka
2008-06-19 23:05:32
"...it should be the last institution in the world to condone the oppression of anyone else." Amen to that!! I'm an atheist but reading statements like these keep my faith in humanity even stronger!

Otis Buddy Sutson
2008-06-20 12:25:33
Rev. Wiley, I applaud you and Christine for your holy boldness. The Black church will change. It takes time and leadership.

Mel Smith
2008-06-20 15:04:50
Excellent, Excellent, Excellent article. Thanks, Dr. Wiley, for your work. More peace and love in this world

Andrew
2008-06-20 21:23:49
Any church that rejects homosexuals should be close.

Rev. Dr. Jerry S. Maneker
2008-06-21 14:21:08
As I wrote to a friend of mine who just emailed me this article: What a terrific article!!!! I hope this article gets circulated far and wide, and that it helps people to finally see how the inculcation of lies concerning Gay people in the all churches, Black or not, have caused countless professing Christians to listen to, and obey, the haters than to obey Jesus, and thereby they have made a mockery of their claims to be Christians, just as they have made a mockery of so much of the public's perception of Christianity itself. Moreover, the incalculable damage they have done by castigating and condemning God's LGBT children in the name of God, no less, has caused suicides, assaults, and murders of countless LGBT people, and wreaked havoc on their families. God bless you, Rev. Wiley for speaking out on this crucial matter! We can only pray that other clergy speak out against the atrocities done to God's LGBT children that have been perpetrated by most of the institutional Church.

Larry Latta
2008-06-21 21:59:43
Thank you, Rev. Wiley, for having the courage to write this article. May it find a widespread audience and halt the hypocritical cruelty dispensed from so many pulpits and taken up by so many congregations. I'm a white man whose life partner of over 17 years was black and a church musician, usually in Missionary Baptist churches. His greatest pleasure was serving his churches and, doing so, the memory of his Grandmother and her early teaching. He loved the twice weekly choir rehearsals, the trips with his choir to other church concerts, and most of all the hours of Sunday music making. After meeting him I wholeheartedly supported his many church activities. We designed and printed (at our expense) many programs for the Pastor And Wife Anniverseries, the summertime revivals and the the fundraising concerts for choir robes...we even delivered for the Building Fund catfish fries! For his final church we bought a used organ, the church's first. Unfortunately, though he was popular with several of the congregants, many times he came home from church to relate having to sit through anti-homosexual diatribes and other humiliations. One Sunday the preacher's wife (recently released from prison) abruptly and with no warning rose from her position in the choir, turned to the other choir members (including the children) and announced loudly, "We don't have to stay here and sing for this god-damned faggot!" and ushered the rest of the choir off the diaz and out of the sanctuary. My poor man was too shocked to move. He sat at his piano until the service was over, utterly crushed and confused. (We were friends with the choir president and her mother and sister; they described the scene to me. He was so absolutely destroyed he could barely give me the outlines of the travesty.) The thing that hurt the most was that the preacher, though flustered, just continued on and that no one in the congregation came to his defense. He attempted to get clarification from his preacher but could'nt. He attended service the next Sunday but after that never returned. Worse, he never sought another church position. He played here at the house for us and occasionally for friends, but never played in a church again. I can't say he lost his faith, but the subject was taboo from then on. He died a year and a half ago, about 8 years after that incident. I've lost my anger, but it still breaks my heart to think back to that time. Now there are two things I wish he could have witnessed: Barack Obama's magnificent run for the Presidency and your article, Reverend. They would have given him some comfort.

Rev, Dr. H. Brown
2008-06-23 03:28:37
Thank you Reverend for this article. I was actually asked to leave the Missionary Baptist church I had pastored for 6 years because I embraced the guys and ladies who didn't act like everyone else... The Deacons told me that they were coming to church to see me! When all along they were coming because they had found a place that didn't bash them and talk about them from the pulpit. So I was proud that they were coming to see "me!" Because evidently I was doing my job! I was winning souls for Christ... It's amazing how homosexuality is the only "sin" that the black church has a problem with...The same church that asked me to leave because "gays" were coming have women ministers that are sleeping with other women husband. Newly appointed deacons that is married, but has a mistresses on the outside (for years) that they are seen publicly with in the malls and restaurants. Women in the church having babies for married men. A deacon whose wife is said to be practicing voodoo. But that is ok... Another pastor in the city asked one of the deacons, "If Pastor Brown was sleeping with two or three women in the church then what?" The deacon replied, "HE CAN STAY!" Someone said it earlier that, "... shame on you for going to a church Sunday after Sunday and you're not welcome!" But this is my beef with those hypocritical pastors. How is it that they sit the gays down from positions and offices in the church but don't tell them to sit down during the offering! They are good enough to give their money, but not good enough to serve in the church...HYPOCRITES!!! But in my situation, my folk had problems with me because I wasn't going to let them run the church. For 128 years they did what they wanted to do and when they wanted to do it, but when I took the reins, we instituted order and removed power from folk who had been in positions for years and doing nothing. So in order for them to take control back of THEIR church, they had to find a reason to get rid of me! So they made of lies (mind you, I'm talking about church folk)and spreaded them throughout the church and the community. People who didn't even know me were talking about me to me! People would come up to me and say, "You heard about that pastor out at GFC..." and I would play along and say, "no!" And they would proceed to tell me about me! And when they finish, I would introduce myself to them...You would have thought they saw Jesus! But the hurting part was the folk who said they loved me for 6 years how they walked off and left me. I understand what Jesus went through when the shouted went from Hosana to crusify him... Folk I married, family members of folk I buried, folk whose rent and house payments I paid, whose car notes I paid out of my pocket, not the church account. The church that I gave ALL I had turned it's back on me! Then my so call pastor friends...WOW, I was preaching everywhere, not only because I can preach, but because I carried great support from my church, but when this foolishness hit the streets, my pastor friends were so afraid of their pulpits until not only do they not call for me to preach, they don't even call to see how I'm doing...But everyone who has stopped calling me, I can tell you something about them. Either they have a woman outside, a man outside or a woman and a man outside! But they shun me... My church, the community and some suppose to be friends they tried to kill me, but they just made me better! I hold my head up on the fact that Jesus told me that I had to endure persecution!!! If I can't pastor EVERYBODY, then I don't want to pastor! I would love to hear from some of you who have experienced some of things I mention because I know I'm not the only one! If you are willing to share with me, send me an email to drjr386@yahoo.com if you can't identify yourself don't send it. If you are sending negative emails don't sent it. I am serious about my walk with God and I do believe that iron sharpens iron. We can encourage on another... drjr386@yahoo.com Dr. H. Brown Jr.

Christopher
2008-06-23 14:22:32
Before I start, no, I do not agree with you in the slightest. I do, however, have some questions that will, of course, seem very loaded, but I would love for you to answer them honestly: 25 years from now (completely hypothetical of course) when siblings desire to marry, will you ask the Black Church to stand behind that? After all, the Bible says less about such a sexual act than it does hypocrisy. How about the LDS (Latter Day Saints) lawyer who should march right into California and demand that they allow husbands to marry more than one wife. Should the Black Church stand behind that, as some in our congregations maybe feel apt to marry more than one wife? Once again, the Bible says more about hypocrisy than one man marrying four women, right? Some may say this won't happen, but why would it not? 50 years ago...30 years ago(!) we would not have seen THIS coming, right? In the end all that has happened is we have re-defined what the Bible says about an area of human sexuality. We have bowed down to the inability of man to rise about his own sin and have thus named it "Cause to Celebrate". As far as calling this the same battle as Civil Rights, that is bunk. Why? Simple. We were being denied rights that Scripture affords everyone. Scripture does not afford for a man to lie with a man, and while many may say "This is why God said such and such" we do not know that. What we know is that God said "Do not". We have looked in Scripture, begging it and demanding it to allow certain behavior, instead of shaping our lives around such. Indeed, the American Church (Black, White, etc...) will be exposed to Judgment as we call bitter "sweet", darkness "light" and exchange the truth for a lie.

Andrew
2008-06-23 22:40:15
I do not beleive in Gay marrages, because I feels it's a put down to both men and women. If people want to live together I don't see anything wrong with it. As dirty as the human race is who! can we point our fingers at Sad! Andrew

Cas
2008-06-24 01:28:21
I am rather saddened reading this article and the many individuals who have cosigned with Pastor Wiley. The Bible CLEARLY states that homosexuality is a sin, and as a Christian, I refuse to stand idly by while people make excuses (in this case: the existence of hypocrisy within the church) to justify their stance on the issue. "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable" (Leviticus 18:22). How can one evade the condemnation in this verse? It doesn't simnply state that one should not do it...it goes on even further to state that it is ABOMINIABLE! Even if one is to argue it is part of Mosaic law which are no longer applicable (by Grace) to the present-day Christian, one CANNOT escape the abomination God clearly associates with this act. It saddens me that a "Christian" Pastor is ALSO writing off everyone who believes homosexuality is a sin as homophobic and heterosexist! A sin is a sin is a sin. If something is blue, I call it blue--if it is green, I call it green. It is as simple as that. I don't hate homosexuals...I merely believe that it is a sin as the Bible clearly indicates. Yes, Jesus did associate with the "least", as Pastor Wiley indicates: the poor, sick, the outcast. However, he did not advocate their sin but to them to "repent" and "turn away from their sin". He didn't simply "associate" with them, He had a message for them...a clear message of repentance! The New Testament does not remain silent on the issue of homosexuality. "...Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolators nor adulterers nor male prostitues nor homosexual offenders...will inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Corinthians 6:9 Romans 1:24-28 further details the issue in which the deparivity, indecency and perversion of homosexuality is clearly discussed! Do not be deceived! In these last days, evil will be disguised as truth. I beg that you all seek God's true will in each and every one of your lives. I pray that the the church "black or otherwise" will not stray away from the true teachings of the Gospel, that while advocating LOVE, JUSTICE and INCLUSION, spoke loud and clearly aout REPENTANCE and turning away from sin. May God bless you all and open up your hearts to accept and receive HIS Word!

Christopher
2008-06-24 07:57:35
If I could piggy-back off of what Cas said concerning 1 Cor. 6:9...and go against what the Pastor said: IN the ESV (the newest and most accurate translation of the Scriptures) 1 Cor. 6:9 says, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

What disturbs me is that men and women who should know such things as Greek and Hebrew and the sort have dumbed down these words and have applied them to someting else completely. Paul was not talking about people who force men to have sex, or homosexual rape or those who have hetero-tendencies, but practice homosexuality. I will have to check, but I am pretty sure that NO ONE throughout the history of the Church has exegeted these verses in such a way. So did we get this new interpretation from God or from the Gay, Lesbian and Tran-Gender cause? In the end, when Judgment comes, and that quite soon, it will be shown who was of the Lord and who sought to please man.


Christopher
2008-06-24 10:01:00
Reading this article tonight was very enlightening. I have an online ministry for Gay Christian men called BrothasNDaSpirit. It's a ministry that's designed to help those who deal with the struggle of reconciling their spirituality with their sexual orientation. When I hear of mainstream churches who are now joining the fight against homophobia all I can say is "Praise God." One thing That's clear and that is "God is Love." By the Looks of Rev. Wiley, He's exemplifying what all Black Pastors should be striving to do. Thank you for presenting this article and "be blessed."

The man who wrote this comment in appreciation for the ministry of Pastor Wiley and his article also (if I am not mistaken) has a Male Gay Porn site geared towards black men.

I am not going post the link, but I would just like to say that if this is the same person with the same ministry (the ministry names are the same and the man on the site does go by "Flex"), then such are the people who jump on the board with what Wiley is doing. Such alliances should be appreciations should be disturbing to even the most "open-minded" amongst us.


Christopher
2008-06-24 10:01:48
Sorry for all of the above being in bold!

Windy
2008-06-24 12:21:14
This was an excellent article and a lot of well reasoned comments that followed. I always felt it was a little strange that black churches were so against GLBT folks. And that homophobia is so rampant. I loved reading Purl Gurl's articulate article that followed Rev. Wiley's article, and shed more than a few tears reading Larry Lotta's story. How sad for your partner and how truly tragic.

Tom
2008-06-24 13:41:54
One of the things I have found out over the years that a lot of this homophobia is done by closet gays that preach and preacher that are just plan ignorant that have these mail order degrees, and some that are just in it for the money. They are not men/women of God but poor entertainer in the pulpit that think they are on stage at the Apollo. It just make me sick how the church can down gays and open to all kinds of sin men/women living out of wedlock several children, preachers dating women in the church, money for the poor going to line members pockets.

Christopher
2008-06-24 14:09:05
So, Tom...we should not preach against homosexuality because there are other sins out there that are not being preached against? Not sure if that is a right way of thinking. I mean, that could go on ad nauseum, right? If I am not preaching against homosexuality in my church, I should not preach against adultery. If I am not preaching against adultery, then I should not preach against stealing, and etc...

As for your thoughts that most people who preach against homosexuality are either closet gays or ignorant, what has brought you to this conclusion? And does that go with everything else that a minister would preach against? If a minister preaches passionately against adultery, is he either cheating on his wife or ignorant of the reasons behind adultery? I find it interesting that most arguments for homosexuality being allowed/adopted by the Church would not be tolerated as anything near Biblical for other sins.


kenneth
2008-06-24 17:07:58
You know Christopher it is one thing to disagree in an intelligent manner that leads to provocative discussions and elevates the topic to a higher lever of thinking but all you have done is used the same old texts that have been taken out of context to hear yourself preach . Individuals are sad that people have co-signed with Dr. Wiley what is sad is that people are in churches with very little teaching on and a great deal of entertainment taking the place of much needed theology that will uplift the community. Some of the comments have more to do with issues of self hatred and a need to deny others access to bing happy because they themselves are in such misery. By the way Christopher people all over the mid west are carrying out the practice of men having more then one wife and guess what, it is done through the church. Now it might not be approved the leader of your church but many churches buy into in. In these situations meaning issues that tend to divide us as a people, it will serve us well to come together and reason together. Anyone can take scripture out of context and use it as a means to deny other the right to the tree of life. If I was a white person in position of authority who had issues with Black people I would have a field day, O they are. I agree with you, we should never support any man having more then one wife, I am much more comfortable with living with the understanding many sitting in the pews are having extra marital and EVERYONE know it.

Christopher
2008-06-24 18:30:22
You know Christopher it is one thing to disagree in an intelligent manner that leads to provocative discussions and elevates the topic to a higher lever of thinking but all you have done is used the same old texts that have been taken out of context to hear yourself preach.

So, what you are saying (correct me if I am wrong) is MORE than the "same old texts" to add to the discussion? What, then, would you like for me to add? Socio-economics? Psychology behind the homosexual movement and so on? All I have is the "same old texts" that you do not want to hear. And, no, it is not because I want to "hear myself preach."

Some of the comments have more to do with issues of self hatred and a need to deny others access to bing happy because they themselves are in such misery.

So now we are about people being happy? When I indulged myself in pornography I was happy, but is that the kind of "happiness" that God wants for His people? If the scale is "How happy am I?" then we might have some problems.

Anyone can take scripture out of context and use it as a means to deny other the right to the tree of life. If I was a white person in position of authority who had issues with Black people I would have a field day, O they are. I agree with you, we should never support any man having more then one wife, I am much more comfortable with living with the understanding many sitting in the pews are having extra marital and EVERYONE know it.

Yes, anyone can take a Scripture out of context. My question is have we been taking these passages out of context for so many centuries. All of us have been wrong about these for so long all the way up until...now. And I am not quite sure what the "White people in authority" have to do with anything.

As far as men having multiple wives and it happening through the Church...well, I guess it still does not make it right. The Churches in Germany stood aside while the Jews were being decimated. Just because a church does it does not make it right.


Ramses
2008-06-25 10:55:42
Because they call themselves Christians, what happened to: they will know we are Christians by our Love, not by our pastors or pocketbooks.The Black Church and the evangelicals need to stop fantasizing and come down to reality in help some somebody other than themselves. They also need to educate their people beyond gospel music, makeup and dressing up. They have become a club for pulpit entertainment. I cry over their arrogance and lack of shame because they do not recognize the time of their visitation.

JJ
2008-06-25 11:07:07
To ALL THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW... THOSE WHO WRITE SUCH ARTICLE ARE WOLVES IN SHEEPS CLOTHING LIKE THE BIBLE SAYS. LOGIC WILL GIVE YOU A CLUE THAT the Bible is clear on sexual immorality; be it hetero or homo. We can dance around it, we can try and cover it up, we can try to "look for ways to excuse it," but it is obvious that homosexuality does not keep in line with Biblical truth. Let's consider these points: Logically speaking: 1. Why is it that only homosexuals feel they are being violated by the church, but people who lie, steal, committ adultery, alcoholics, drug addicts, greedy, covetous, child molesters, murderers, etc....why is it that those who committ such acts are not saying the same thing as homosexuals? All of these acts are condemned by the bible but you don't see these people leading marches in the streets demanding "rights." hmmmm funny, huh. 2. Why is it that most pro-homosexual theologians are the only ones trying to re-write the bible and in all things claim the bible has been misinterpreted on that issue, but never claim the same on the other issues....like salvation for instance, or incest. What if all the people who committ incest were to start saying the Bible is wrong about incest. What would happen to society. 3. Why do the gay rights groups always claim the "victim mentality," but when the curtain comes down,they are usually the ones doing all the threatening then will bash any group that tries to offer a different view of sexuality or Biblical morality. People like Wiley are just twisting scripture for their own pleasure. The fact of the matter is, people are looking for excuses to EXALT THEIR SEXUAL FEELINGS OVER BIBLICAL TRUTH. Science has not proven in any form that homosexuality is inborn-- genetically or biologically. And any case that has tried to say so has already been thoroughly debunked and shown to be flawed and more political than anything else. And when the APA took homosexuality off the Diagnostics and Statistical Manual back in the early 70's, it had nothing to do with proven science, but rather social pressure from groups like ACT UP, gay radicals, who, in their own words, said they were going to create a scene at the APA annual meeting if they did not get their way. READ THE BOOKS!!! "The Homosexual Agenda"- this book breaks down every social and political, court cased documentation of the homosexual agenda to change america to accept homosexuality and to shut up any opposing views. Great read. "The Same-Sex Controversy"- It logically and theologically breaks down Mel White's twisted gay theology- "Outraged"- This chronicals and shows how the homosexual agenda to change marriage laws is more selfishly motivated (or looking for federal stamp of approval of homosexuality) than actually motivated by a desire to get married. "A Strong Delusion"- For those who biblically want to argue the "gay christian" moniker as being biblically acceptable. "Homosexuality"- this book is repleat with all and almost every reference to homosexuality and thoroughly debunks all pro-gay social, historical, biblical, arguments... very collegiate. YOu won't read this one over night.

Ramses
2008-06-25 11:23:31
JJ one thing that you are not clear on is the bible. May God have Mercy on you and your store front mentality? It is you your subway preaching friends who need to take the planks out of your own eyes before you try to remove the splinter out of your brother or sisters’ eye. -The Big Bad Wolf

NYC Critic
2008-06-25 14:04:51
This article is crap! There are more Gays in the black church then anywhere else. It's funny because someoen below says the black church makes the men live a lie - please -- it's outright and you see it every sunday well.."The Church Queens" anyway. Anyhow- gay people need to be real with themselves because at the end of the day god knows their heart and he is the only person they should be answering too. Politics, Religion etc - it's bullshyt! Live Free!

kenneth
2008-06-25 19:17:03
One of the must frightening things about the comments coming from some of you is that you attempt to disguise your hate in scripture shake it up a bit with low level thinking and call it truth. The argument JJ is shameful and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Christopher the comment I made about white people being in authority points to the fact that many whites used the bible to support their need to oppressed persons of color. I am sure if you paid any attention in your history class, you know that slavery was supported by the church because of how people took scripture out of context to support their position. This stuff about incest and porn is simply a weak argument stemming from weak minds that have nothing original to contribute and to lazy to study for themselves.

Christopher
2008-06-25 20:24:34
One of the must frightening things about the comments coming from some of you is that you attempt to disguise your hate in scripture shake it up a bit with low level thinking and call it truth.

Interesting, me saying that something is wrong that the Church all over the world has said is wrong for centuries is me disguising my hatred in Scripture? Again, I must ask, if I denounce other things that Scripture seems to be against, am I disguising my hatred for those people? Once again, arguments are made for Christian homosexuality that we would not make for any other sin. If you cried out against liars would I be justified in saying that you simply have a hatred for liars?

Christopher the comment I made about white people being in authority points to the fact that many whites used the bible to support their need to oppressed persons of color. I am sure if you paid any attention in your history class, you know that slavery was supported by the church because of how people took scripture out of context to support their position.

Yes, I agree Scripture was taken out of context to support slavery. Oddly enough WHITE PEOPLE like Wilburforce (since I know my history) used the same Scriptures (IN context) to help abolish slavery. If you could tell me how the following is out of context I would appreciate it:

When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers!

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.--1 Cor. 6:1-10

Now, I would like to let you know that "homosexuality" in that passage is ???????????? (arsenokoit?s, 733), -??, ?, (????? a male; ????? a bed), one who lies with a male as with a female, a sodomite: 1 Co. vi. 9; 1 Tim. i. 10. (Anthol. 9, 686, 5; eccl. writ.)--see http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/

Again, if the argument sounds stale, I am not sure what to tell you. I have but one sword and one sword alone.


4real
2008-06-25 23:32:53
This is such a great article. God is and will continue to bless you and your church Dr. Dennis W. Wiley. Remember to those of you throwing bible verses around it also saids "To thine ourselve be true". If you're not gay, please don't try to tell someone who is that they are not or not worthy of God's love or acceptance. You CAN NOT and will NEVER change someone's sexual orientation. This is something that is predetermined while in our mother's womb. There's not one scripture or passage that can change someones genetic makeup, if that were true some african americans who sweat, bleed, and died building this country would have prayed for a way out of there black skin. Some "passed" just to get by in a society that treated them as second class citizens, which is what many gay men have done over the years and continue to do because of society and it's narrow-mind. This of course has helped perpetuate black and hispanics women being the highest rate of new cases with HIV. Thinking we our "saving" others from the wrath of God,we our literally killing ourselves. We are called into being to live "our" life, not to be our "brother's keeper." I'll end with this. Let us live each day as we knew we were being assesed according to how well we love, how compassionate we are, and how nonjudgmental we act. This would be a much better world for everyone. Love to all!!! 4real

Ramses
2008-06-26 08:45:21
To Ms Christopher and Ms JJ and the rest of you closet cases, this includes all the reformed saved hookers, addicts, drunks, hoeing around deacons and deaconesses and preachers: Just sit back and remember the days that your black gays brothers and sisters feed you’re a**s and your families, visited your sorry behinds when you were in jail , sick and/or in prison, paid your rent raised your children , provided you and your families with food ,heat and shelter and the list goes on .... Now tell me who was more Christian them or your tired saved shouting a**s, church pimping, hoeing bastards in the pew. Not real Christians but those of you who would now if he kissed you in the face. Get real let Jesus’ Salvific Grace transform your behind because as quiet as it is kept you already saved, we all are it is gift payment; the key is to treat others with same love that He did.

Ramses II
2008-06-26 08:50:12
To Ms Christopher and Ms JJ and the rest of you closet cases, this includes all the reformed saved hookers, addicts, drunks, hoeing around deacons and deaconesses and preachers: Just sit back and remember the days that your black gays brothers and sisters feed you’re a**s and your families, visited your sorry behinds when you were in jail , sick and/or in prison, paid your rent raised your children , provided you and your families with food ,heat and shelter and the list goes on .... Now tell me who was more Christian them or your tired saved shouting a**s, church pimping, hoeing bastards in the pew. I am not talking about real Christians but those of you who would now Jesus if he kissed you in the face. Get real let Jesus’ Salvific Grace transform your behind because as quiet as it is kept you already saved, we all are, salvation a is gift not payment; the key is to treat others with same love that He did.

Christopher
2008-06-26 08:59:14
4real, As I say the following please understand something that I should have made clear before: I am not speaking out of hate, but rather anger. Ephesians 4 says, "be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger and give no opportunity to the devil." It is good, it is BIBLICAL to be angry at sin. Jesus was angered when he found the thieves in His Father's house. Paul was angered by the false-teachers who came after the Galatians. It is impossible to read Jude and not get a since of righteous indignation. That being said, I will say the following in love so far as I can that I may do honor to God, to Christ and to the Church.

1. "To thine own self be true" is Scriptural, it is Shakespearian. What you have shown is a certain Biblical Illiteracy, which, unfortunately, plagues most of the American church. You have shown, in the post at least, a better understanding of the HIV epidemic and its accompanying statistics than you have Scripture.

2. It seems as if you are saying that once homosexuals find that society does not tolerate their behavior they are forced to fake it and they end up infecting others. The fact that they have gone from committing one sin (living a homosexual lifestyle) to committing another (fornication) should not be an argument here. If anything it makes it sound like HIV is a judgment against homosexuality (which it may be, I do not know the mind of God in such a way), which is then being given to the rest of the public.

3. I agree that we should judge ourselves by our love and compassion. Yet, you have made another Biblical error, I am sad to say. Judging is not wrong. Judging others with a certain criteria and not judging yourself by the same is wrong. Christ said that we would know false prophets by the fruit they bear. If this is the case, should we not judge them? As far as compassion and love is concerned, Ephesians 4 says

"Speaking the truth in love we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the Head, into Christ..."
It is Love that speaks the Truth. Love does not watch someone drive off a cliff, not wanting to judge their driving as wrong. Rather love waves frantically trying to get their attention before harm is done. "Open-Mindedness" has so distorted the Way that, I am sad to say, that many may now sit in Wrath because someone did not wish to be declared as "close-minded" to others.

christopher
2008-06-26 09:08:02
To Ms Christopher and Ms JJ and the rest of you closet cases, this includes all the reformed saved hookers, addicts, drunks, hoeing around deacons and deaconesses and preachers: Just sit back and remember the days that your black gays brothers and sisters feed you?re a**s and your families, visited your sorry behinds when you were in jail , sick and/or in prison, paid your rent raised your children , provided you and your families with food ,heat and shelter and the list goes on .... Now tell me who was more Christian them or your tired saved shouting a**s, church pimping, hoeing bastards in the pew. Not real Christians but those of you who would now if he kissed you in the face. Get real let Jesus? Salvific Grace transform your behind because as quiet as it is kept you already saved, we all are it is gift payment; the key is to treat others with same love that He did.

So, the fact that someone has done good to others means that they are a believer? In the sermon on the mount Jesus said that there were many on that day who will say "Lord! Lord!", but did not do the will of His Father. They did however prophesy, and do good works and all the sort.

If we are going to say that this should be the only criteria for judging, then we must excuse Muslims who do good work, Non-Christian Jews who do good work, Jehovah's Witnesses who do good works and etc... Yet this is not the criteria. The criteria is adherence to the Truth...ALL the truth.

And concerning love, yes, I do desire to love others as Christ loved me. That includes speaking the truth. Did Christ love people when He told them to bear their cross daily and follow Him? Did He love Peter when He rebuked Him, calling Him Satan? Did Christ love those to whom He said "Go and sin no more? Love is not apathy towards another's sin, nor is it wholesale acceptance of sin. Love is showing someone compassion AND Truth.


Ramses
2008-06-26 11:22:42
Dear Ms Christopher : So, the fact that someone has done good to others means that they are a believer? In the sermon on the mount Jesus said that there were many on that day who will say "Lord! Lord!", but did not do the will of His Father. They did however prophesy, and do good works and all the sort. Apply this quote to yourself and the rest of you queens butch and fem. I bet you understand that or is it under the bushel with rest of your light and illiterate reading and interpretation of the scripture. I would not mind your craziness if you and your kind did not destroy so many lives in the name of Christ .I do recall at the final judgment in Matthews Gospel (kerygma)Jesus asked” Did you feed the hungry and so on. Then He said as often as you have done to the lest of my brethren you have done it for me. Come and receive the reward prepared for from the foundation of the world. ” Ex abundancia cordis, os loquitor - From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks

Christopher
2008-06-26 14:03:44
Apply this quote to yourself and the rest of you queens butch and fem. I bet you understand that or is it under the bushel with rest of your light and illiterate reading and interpretation of the scripture.

Yes, I do apply Scripture to myself and judge myself in light of Scripture as Paul told the Corinthians to do. I am not sure where the illiterate reading of Scripture came from. No one has yet told me where I mis-interpret Scripture, though I am open to any rebuttal of the sort.

I would not mind your craziness if you and your kind did not destroy so many lives in the name of Christ.

"Me and my kind"? I do not know of anyone's life I have destroyed, personally. If what I am doing (calling sin "sin") is destroying people, that would put an interesting spin on Jesus' words that Satan came to "steal, kill and destroy".

I do recall at the final judgment in Matthews Gospel (kerygma)Jesus asked? Did you feed the hungry and so on. Then He said as often as you have done to the lest of my brethren you have done it for me. Come and receive the reward prepared for from the foundation of the world.

Ok? I a agree with that passage, but I am not sure what the point of it was for you to type it, sorry.


Ramses
2008-06-26 15:16:41
Christopher: I do not have time to exegete Scripture for you but I bet you’re kind of cute. I surrender maybe you can help; forgive me for being so sensitive. The point of reviewing Matthew Last Judgment with you is to remind you of what Jesus said: "All that prophets and scripture report boils down to this, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, your mind and your spirit and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Christopher
2008-06-26 22:15:58
Ramses,

Interesting...you have time to rail against me for post after post, but not to exegete a small passage of Scripture? Again, interesting.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me about how I am poor interpreting Scripture.


Purl Gurl
2008-06-26 23:32:27
Amongst the greatest of sins is believing the Bible is a good book.

Okpulot Taha
Choctaw Nation


JJ
2008-06-27 00:54:51
Christopher, As you can see, there is no reaching with those who have decided to go their own way. Did you notice that Ramses started using foul language at us and then wanna put us down when we didn't do anything as demeaning as what he did? See, that's the hypocrisy of the gay activists...they scream all day, "we are victims, come rescue us, federal government," but truth be told, they are the first ones to throw hate and vile words at folks who disagree w/ them. At least I can admit if I disagree, then we can still be cool. 4Real, at what point did we say that gays are not worthy of God's love and acceptance. I didn't say that...that's what you got out of my denunciation of homosexuality,...certainly not the homosexual. Separate metaphysics from the act. Ramses, it doesn't take rocket science to understand the scriptures pertaining to sex and sexuality. Like I said, for some reason, homosexuals are the ONLY GROUP crying for acceptance of their proclivity while no other group is doing the same. My argument is pure logic...not scriptural at this point. It is obvious you have interpreted the Bible to suit your desires and passions. Christopher, THANK YOU...YOU BROKE IT DOWN W/ THE ARSENOKOITS, ETC... Yeah, I could have went there, but it would have been too much. I have read the books. I know what those words mean and why Paul used them. God loves all and will accept you where you are--trust me I know, but like any judge, there are rules, and when the rules are broken, there will be judgement. Take it or leave it. It's that simple. You either reject the Word or you accept it. It comes down to choice. I won't sugar coat it. God is calling to you right now for repentance, but it is your choice. Why is it we can understand that if you drive 85 down a 35MPH road everyday, that eventually, you will get caught by the judge(police) and will be given a ticket. Then you will have to pay the penalty for your crime. That is a simple yet accurate analogy of God, the ultimate judge,who has given us His rules and expect us to live by them as best as possible, and even gave us His spirit to help. But we decide to do our thing...and then expect God to just overlook our indiscretions. God is not mocked.

Ramses
2008-06-27 09:05:19
Christopher and JJ grow up. As they say a little knowledge is dangerous. I taught Scripture and I know and love God. I am a Christian and I have three degrees in Theology and Scripture graduate and undergrad and I studied in the US and Europe my credentials speak for themselves in serve me well in my Ministry. A comment column is not a responsible place to review Greek and Hebrew terms , the historical critical backgrounds and sociological phenomenon of the data not and to mention whole histories and religions and Denominations which are based in a flawed uneducated interpretation the Hebrew and Christian scripture. There is no such thing as Solo Scriptura to posit this is to deny scripture it self which was oral tradition in some cases for century and influenced my the social strata mores and beliefs systems of the various communities in which it survived. Thus in. the 21st century to still rely on solo on medieval scientific beliefs which may contrary and before The Enlightment, and to also disavow new schools of science which did not exist or were not understood at the time of the previous interpretation is irresponsible and untheistic.To use them as a foundation is the more acceptable and proper utilization. As per example it is akin to treating contemporary illness with blood letting leeches, it harms can destroy but does provide relief or cure. Also JJ there are several ways to do harm and cuss people, among them is disavowing the beauty of God's creation which He is endowing and He has gifting a person with like his /her same gender loving desires or homosexuality. If anyone is crying here about how they are being treated and misunderstood it is you. Remember Exitus acta probat - The outcome proves the deeds.

Christopher
2008-06-27 14:19:06
Ramses,

That all SOUNDS pretty good, and I am happy for your credentials. I am not sure what that has to do with anything however. You have gone from giving a "well they do good things" argument, to a "I have a vast education" argument. In there somewhere you managed to argue from "rant and rave" for a while. All the while, however, I have not seen one iota of Scripture. Why is that?

Here is the thing: I would love to give you my e-mail address, so that we could finish this discussion, but I am not going to. The reason I am not is because I people to see the discussions that have taken place and may continue to take place here. I have given Scripture and have been told that I my interpretation is poor, yet NO ONE has ventured into telling my how it is poor. I have given Scripture and I have gotten "You are closed-minded", "Take the plank out of your own eye", "They do good deeds", random cuss words thrown about (with symbols instead of letters though) and various other "non-answers". I want people to see this.

I want people to see the fact that no one has given any reasonable response to my questions, statements and arguments even now. So, we will continue on, I guess.

Odd, however, that Scripture, which has been perfectly fine as the standard of life and faith for several thousands of years, now needs to be backed up by Science. What if, 30 years from now, we find that something else that Scripture (supposedly) says is a sin is defined by Science as natural? What do we do then? Do we decide that whatever it is (since it is "natural") becomes a beautiful thing? Or do we conclude that all of creation (even the chromosomes of men and women) groan until we are fitted with our new bodies? Do we decide that, since Scripture says such is a sin, that THIS is how some men and women bear their cross for Christ? Being learned in so many areas you must know that men are more prone to sexual desire simply by site. Do we dismiss pornography as a sin, since it simply plays into how God made us?

Such arguments could go on ad nauseum if we desire to go there. And you may go there if you like. Yet, as I said, I want people to see that you do. I want people to see Scriptural arguments targeted as "close-minded" and "old".

But once again, congrats on all the education.


gcmwatch
2008-06-27 15:11:37
Christopher, I have been following this conversation since you joined it (thankfully). It seems you are talking to or perhaps attempting to talk to people who do not value scripture in the least bit unless it can in some twisted way supports their windblown theories of sexuality. These who claim to be chistian swear by "science" (manmade) but cringe like vampires faced by a cross when scripture (God-breathed) is brought up. A sad case indeed with Ramses who arrogantly spouts his educational credentials as if that has anything to do with the Word of God. Jesus said the gospel is preached to the poor. Yet, the educationally elite such as Ramses would have everybody know Greek and Hebrew backwards and forwards just to understand a SIMPLE COMMAND "man shall not lie with man". How utterly foolish contortions they engage in simply because they will not accept what has come from the mouth of God. If they were at all honest, they would just say "I dont believe what the Bible says." But when you have a form of godliness, you need a religious facade to fool those who are silly and unlearned in the Word of God. I like what you said these conversations do not need to be private. Jesus' death wasnt private nor was his open defeat of all principalities and powers. Hopefully someone who can properly exegete scripture and without muddying the conversation with unsubstantiated educational accomplishments, attempt to answer your qeustions. I dont think they will, because homosexual religionistas are very afraid to deal with texts outside of the box of "love". Very afraid.

Ramses
2008-06-27 17:51:46
Christopher I will answer your question from a scriptural point of view, share the text you are referencing-there have been so many I do not know where to begin?? Gcmwatch I believe God is Love and those who abide in love abide in me. I think Jesus said that, oh also Jesus said when asked about the queens leave them alone some come that way from their mother’s womb. I do believe the psalmist wrote -You knitted me together in my mothers womb...I give you thanks O Lord for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. The month God also resides in the Human Heart where people worship in Spirit and truth.

Christopher
2008-06-27 18:33:38
When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud?even your own brothers! Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.--1 Cor. 6:1-10

This is all that I brought up. When I saw that no one was answering Scriptural arguments I left it alone. I left almost the entirety of the chapter, so as not to allow anyone to claim I was taking something out of context. Answer this one and then we can move on from there, deal?


Ramses
2008-06-27 18:57:24
Deal, I will go deeper into this later. Let me begin by saying that many of those issues which Paul is addressing deal with gentiles who were converts and many of the issues he is pointing out deal not simply with their actions but their past religious practice and belief .He is not talking about orientation he is talking about straight men who had a choice, women are not mentioned as they are in Romans. Next what was sexual immorality for the Jews and Christians at the time of Paul; it also included sexual acts between married couples. Also remember Paul expected the second coming within his lifetime any minute, He said that they all should live as brothers and sisters but it is better to marry then to burn. I will continue this with more depth..

Mel Smith
2008-06-27 20:13:09
Proud Gay Brotha Perspective: Some Bible scholars(I'm not one!) believe that Paul was gay. Scholar John Shelby Spong believed that Paul may have been gay. Did men during biblical times know about sexual orientation? During biblical times, were gay men considered men like heterosexual men? Scholar Malik Faris(Princeton University and University of California Berkeley graduate!) reflects on there being a 'third gender' in history. Do men with a HOMOSEXUAL ORIENTATION sleep with women? Didn't Leviticus said men should not sleep with another man as how he would SLEEP WITH A WOMAN? Do GAYS SLEEP WITH WOMEN? FINALLY, was the anti gay passages meant to punish ALL GAY FOLKS IN 2008, or was it rules meant for JEWISH people a ritual tribe? DON'T WASTE THE SEMEN! White, Black, Christian, or Muslim, the problem is FUNDAMENTALISM. Will somebody type or say the word SELF HATE? Or type the word SELF DESTRUCTION.

Mel Smith
2008-06-27 20:19:27
Ramses, retired Newark Epispical Bishop, John Shelby Spong, believe that Paul may have been gay. So they use paul comments to discriminate against gays, but the fundamentalists Christians may be quoting a gay man! Again, during biblical times, were gender terms different than our terms. Were there male, female, and gays? Princeton graduate Malik Faris offers an interesting perspective.

Mashuneh
2008-06-27 20:21:24
Hi Ramses, I am a black gay theology/religion student as well. While I agree with you that a comments forum is not the best place to discuss a lot of social and philological issues related to the issue of sexuality, we need to be able to explain this stuff to people in a way that makes sense. Here's the bottom line: Today we see homosexuality as an expression of a psychological desire for romantic and physical relationships with people of the same sex. Homosexuality is not the result of people who, say, have too much luxury in their lives and therefore engage in same-sex relations (as the Hellenistic Jew and Pauline contemporary, Philo, saw it). The references to same-sex relationships in the Bible should not be used to apply to homosexuality just as the passages that deal with slavery should not have been applied to slavery in the 19th century. More importantly, a superficial connection between "what the Bible says" and how we live our lives is actually dangerous (as the issue of slavery should have made very clear). So Christopher is just plain wrong that the Bible has been this pristine standard of ethical life for thousands of years when everyone who cares to be honest knows that its words have been used to keep people in chains. An overreliance on the literal words of the Bible has been disastrous. As far as 1 Cor 6:9-10 is concerned, the Greek words there are VERY controversial, and no dogmatic interpreter who insists that arsenokoites MUST be based on the LXX translation of Lev. 18:22 is going to change that. Arsenokoites in 1 Cor 6:9-10 MAY be a reference to Lev. 18:22, but then again, it may not. And, of course, even if the word is based on Paul's understanding of Lev. 18:22, we would have to assume that Paul read Lev. 18:22 as a prohibition of all "homosexuality" which is itself controversial. Or we could assume that Paul read Lev. 18:22 like other Hellenistic Jews read it--but then, we'd have to assume that Paul had a traditional Hellenistic Jewish understanding of sexuality which opens a whole other can of worms. How one CHOOSES (yes, it is a choice--there is no "obvious" reading that is just "natural") to read the passage will be based on a preconceived bias. Then there is the fact that the expressions of love in the Bible most closely matching our modern ideas of love are between people of the same sex such as David and Jonathan and Ruth and Naomi (though I admit that their relationships are also not comparable to the modern idea of "homosexuality"). Their relationships do, on the other hand, show that the Biblical world was far removed from ours--so much so that nowhere in Scripture did husbands and wives express the kind of love and devotion for one another that these same-sex "friendships" did. So much for the "biblical" model of marriage.

Ramses
2008-06-27 22:11:53
Mashuneh and Mel Smith great job .However, I think we know that self hate, bias and prejudice often do not seek truth or true dialogue. What is often the case is they seek only the answers which justify their discriminatory behavior. They do not feel they have to do unto others..... if they are same gender loving. So I do not suspect our sharing of info will be helpful to them but it may help someone else. I will conclude with a quote: 1st Samuel 18:1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.

Ramses
2008-06-27 22:14:23
Christopher does this assist you inyour quest or do you want more?

Ramses
2008-06-27 23:13:56
Another point :Leviticus by its very nature would not apply to Christians, it purpose was to maintain the purity (especially ritual purity) of Israel and safe guard them from foreign religions and influence, it cannot be taken in part but should be taken in whole with all of its precepts. Secondly the other issue with the literal interpretation of Corinthians could mean that many of the early Christians were gay, maybe that is why this is still a phenomenon. Perhaps they were touched by Jesus’ love for John .His beloved Disciple who he was affectionate with in public, Jesus was comfortable with John laying his head on His chest during the Last Supper and whom Jesus entrusted His mother to from the cross. I know you will say it is friendship and perhaps you are right but when the last time was did this in public with a buddy or witnessed. You may say things and the culture were different back then and I say my point exactly.

Ramses II
2008-06-27 23:19:19
Secondly the other issue with the literal interpretation of Corinthians could mean that many of the early Christians were gay, maybe that is why this is still a phenomenon. Perhaps they were touched by Jesus? love for John .His beloved Disciple who he was affectionate with in public, Jesus was comfortable with John laying his head on His chest during the Last Supper and whom Jesus entrusted His mother to from the cross. You may say things and the culture were different back then and I say my point exactly. I know you will say it is friendship and perhaps you are right but when is the last time you did this in public with a buddy or witnessed someone else and his buddy doing it. You may say things and the culture were different back then and I say my point exactly.

Mel Smith
2008-06-27 23:20:17
WHAT??? Christopher and GCMWatch, Ramses degrees are PROOF that he's no BULLSH!T ARTIST like people who quote the Bible just for the hell of it. The brother worked his as$ off to get those degrees. He ain't know phony who went to school for a few months off a mail order degree! I keep it real: I'm a high school social studies teacher. Therefore, I'm no Bible scholar. But, I do know that today's children got more pride than some of you self hating fools. Just because you were taught that the Bible is anti gay, DOES NOT MEAN THE BIBLE IS ANTI GAY. Maybe YOUR interpretation of scripture is WRONG or maybe Your interpretation of scripture is DIFFERENT than mines or the next man. Ramses, these anti gay guys suffer from a sickness called fundamentalism. They are also gay, but they are so brainwashed with what the dominate society has told them. Thus like blind rats, they come on this site quoting scriptures to justify being oppressed. Let them believe whatever. The men who destroyed the World Trade Center believe that they were doing God's work.

Mel Smith
2008-06-27 23:40:43
Ramses, the UNDERCOVER GAYS/BISEXUALS are the problem! Some straight people think homosexuality is a choice because if they want to, they could have GOOD sex with someone of their own gender. However, they don't see that gays DON'T have an attraction for the opposite sex. So yes, it's a choice for some 'straights.' A heterosexual man can stick his penis in another man and get satisfaction. However, most of them CHOOSE NOT TOO! That's why they think homosexuality is a 'choose.' And the BISEXUALS HAVE A 'CHOOSE'! You got Christopher and the rest of the blind mice who never thought twice about challenging their Bible beliefs. So what I have been fed by society my entire life, is what I live by! Again, I'm no Bible scholar. I'll leave that for those who are.

Christopher
2008-06-28 08:41:44
Ok, here we go (and I will add more information later. Look at this as just a brief overview of rebuttal)

Ramses: You say that through most of that Paul is dealing with past religious practices, right? Do you view the other sins listed in that passage the same way? Should we also put such a "spin" on Thievery, Adultery, Idolatry and so on? Is there a certain way that we should be looking at Greed today, as opposed to how they looked at it in Paul's day? Yes, Paul did expect Christ's return in his life time and told people to live in such a way. He instructed those who could not to get married, and then talks about husbands and wives. The sin of some was that, as married couples, they were not giving their bodies over to one another. So, I am not quite sure where you were going with that last part, sorry. Second, as Leviticus does not apply to believers any more, I suppose you would agree with an "Incest Coalition" demanding the same rights in the Church and in the State as Homosexuals do?

Mel:

Proud Gay Brotha Perspective: Some Bible scholars(I'm not one!) believe that Paul was gay. Scholar John Shelby Spong believed that Paul may have been gay. Did men during biblical times know about sexual orientation? During biblical times, were gay men considered men like heterosexual men? Scholar Malik Faris(Princeton University and University of California Berkeley graduate!) reflects on there being a 'third gender' in history. Do men with a HOMOSEXUAL ORIENTATION sleep with women? Didn't Leviticus said men should not sleep with another man as how he would SLEEP WITH A WOMAN? Do GAYS SLEEP WITH WOMEN? FINALLY, was the anti gay passages meant to punish ALL GAY FOLKS IN 2008, or was it rules meant for JEWISH people a ritual tribe? DON'T WASTE THE SEMEN! White, Black, Christian, or Muslim, the problem is FUNDAMENTALISM. Will somebody type or say the word SELF HATE? Or type the word SELF DESTRUCTION.

I never get tired of that argument, simply for that fact that, if it were not used to promote sin, such a fertile imagination should be applauded. Instead of hearing Paul say that homosexuality was wrong, people have decided to hear him say, "Hey, I am gay!" Second, if we are going use the "A man shall not sleep with a man as he does a woman" bit the way you did, we would have to apply the same scheme to sleeping with animals, right? Also, read what else Spong says about the Bible, Christ and the Apostles, and then decide if you want to link your argument to such a "teacher."


gcmwatch
2008-06-28 08:47:21
More silly, worthless, human philosophy and speculation:

What "we" think, etc. Self-justifying reasoning. No Holy Spirit inspired revelation. Zero. Not even worthy of a simple logics debate.

Not to mention foul-mouthed rhetoric which amounts to dung in a deserted back alley.

Its good that this type of religious trash is put in the open so that people can see the chaotic mindset behind this demonic thinking.


Christopher
2008-06-28 09:16:04
Mashuneh: The references to same-sex relationships in the Bible should not be used to apply to homosexuality just as the passages that deal with slavery should not have been applied to slavery in the 19th century.

Yes, the passages that dealt with slavery in Scripture should be used to deal with slavery in the 19th century. Read the passages in both testaments. Had Paul been in the English colonies or the Americas do you think he would have walked up to unbelieving Masters and told them to let their slaves go? Or do you think that he would have given the Gospel, and let the outcome of its power show that slavery was wrong? Slavery in Roman times were just as bad as what happened here. I could give quotes of how people felt about slaves (and will gladly if you desire).

More importantly, a superficial connection between "what the Bible says" and how we live our lives is actually dangerous (as the issue of slavery should have made very clear). So Christopher is just plain wrong that the Bible has been this pristine standard of ethical life for thousands of years when everyone who cares to be honest knows that its words have been used to keep people in chains. An over reliance on the literal words of the Bible has been disastrous.

Yes, people have used Scripture to do some most notorious deeds. But that is not, as you say, living by what the Bible says. For example, the Crusades were done by people who believed that the Pope could get them into Heaven if they fought the Muslims, David Kuresh (I believe) taught people that he was Christ. Slave traders in the America were involved in "People/Man-Stealing", which 1 Timothy 1:8-11 prohibits (along with homosexuality...so apparently it was happening in Corinth and Ephesus). The Inquisition completely went against the teachings and ministries of believers in the New Testament times. Could you imagine Paul killing one of the Silver Smiths for making idols? But anyway, my point is that, what people have said they do in the name of Scripture, Scripture prohibits explicitly 9 times out of 10, and implicitly the rest.

As far as 1 Cor 6:9-10 is concerned, the Greek words there are VERY controversial, and no dogmatic interpreter who insists that arsenokoites MUST be based on the LXX translation of Lev. 18:22 is going to change that. Arsenokoites in 1 Cor 6:9-10 MAY be a reference to Lev. 18:22, but then again, it may not. And, of course, even if the word is based on Paul's understanding of Lev. 18:22, we would have to assume that Paul read Lev. 18:22 as a prohibition of all "homosexuality" which is itself controversial.

Yes, the words are controversial, but just because something is controversial does not mean both sides could possibly be valid. Example, in Southern Baptist Churches there was the idea creeping around that God does not know the future. From such rose controversy over certain passages. Athanasius faced controversy in the early 300s as he held to the doctrine of the Trinity, one of the pillars of Christian faith. Wycliff (sp?) faced controversy as he tried to get the Bible into the hands of the average "plow boy". And finally...

Their relationships do, on the other hand, show that the Biblical world was far removed from ours--so much so that nowhere in Scripture did husbands and wives express the kind of love and devotion for one another that these same-sex "friendships" did. So much for the "biblical" model of marriage.

In the Biblical world being so "far removed" from ours, what else do you lump in there? I find the "that was then and this is now" argument interesting, only because (once again) we do not use that for ANY OTHER SIN in Scripture. Try using that argument for other sins found in 1 Cor. 6, 1 Timothy 1 or Romans 1:18-32 in your next church service and see how that flies. Time to finish this up as I must continue with my morning.


Mel Smith
2008-06-28 11:15:20
Christopher, just like you cannot use those Bible quotes to condemn gays in 2008! It's the same with the slavery quotes! You cannot apply their culture to oppress somebody today. We're talking about sexual orientation, not somebody lying or stealing. Someone's sexuality does not hurt society. You got YOUR opinion, Shelby Spong got HIS opinion, Ramses got HIS opinion, and the next man got HIS opinion! That's what you fundamentalist who use the Bible to oppress gays don't understand. What 'sin' are you talking about? You think people who are not heterosexual are sinners just because they don't have an attractive for the opposite sex? See, what's so sick about this is that you want to use the people to justify prejudice against gays, but you want to IGNORE and discredit how whites used the Bible to justify discrimination against blacks. That's what you call hypocrisy. It DOES NOT MATTER if how you interpret slavery and the Bible. WHat DOES matter is that folks used it to kill blacks! You don't like gays! Which means you likely don't like yourself! And you quote the Bible is if can't nobody else quote it! Again, I'm a social studies teacher. I got a child in my class who EVERYONE knows is gay just by his persona. Is he a 'sinner'? We know he's gay and he does not even have sex! The kids call him a homothug! Is he going to hell just for being gay? What's the 'sin'? Explain your logic.

Mel Smith
2008-06-28 11:24:29
"Try using that argument for other sins found in 1 Cor. 6, 1 Timothy 1 or Romans 1:18-32 in your next church service and see how that flies." Now See, Christopher, that comment you type tells me that you care about what man tell you. Whatever man tells you, you accept. What's wrong with challenging establish beleifs in society? What, you gonna lose some church friends? Just because certain beliefs are held by the majority, does not make those beliefs right. However, you got the right to your opinion. I just found it troublesome that people would call a group of people 'sinners' just because they are not heterosexual. And for other UNDERCOVER gays to accept this establish belief held by the majority, just reflects the self hate/destruction that they suffer from.

Christopher
2008-06-28 12:26:23
Christopher, just like you cannot use those Bible quotes to condemn gays in 2008! It's the same with the slavery quotes! You cannot apply their culture to oppress somebody today. We're talking about sexual orientation, not somebody lying or stealing. Someone's sexuality does not hurt society. You got YOUR opinion, Shelby Spong got HIS opinion, Ramses got HIS opinion, and the next man got HIS opinion! That's what you fundamentalist who use the Bible to oppress gays don't understand. What 'sin' are you talking about? You think people who are not heterosexual are sinners just because they don't have an attractive for the opposite sex? See, what's so sick about this is that you want to use the people to justify prejudice against gays, but you want to IGNORE and discredit how whites used the Bible to justify discrimination against blacks. That's what you call hypocrisy. It DOES NOT MATTER if how you interpret slavery and the Bible. WHat DOES matter is that folks used it to kill blacks! You don't like gays! Which means you likely don't like yourself! And you quote the Bible is if can't nobody else quote it! Again, I'm a social studies teacher. I got a child in my class who EVERYONE knows is gay just by his persona. Is he a 'sinner'? We know he's gay and he does not even have sex! The kids call him a homothug! Is he going to hell just for being gay? What's the 'sin'? Explain your logic.

Okay, from the top: Yes that does apply to slavery...why would it not? Would you, as a slave in the 1700s, loved for your master to realize that his Master in Heaven will judge him for his cruelty? Or that the Apostle Paul told him to treat his slave kindly and that he should stop his threatening? The problem was not that they used Biblical passages about slavery, but that they did not use the full passages about slavery. Had they used the full passages they would have seen that masters were in great sin towards their slaves, and, no doubt, the slave trade would have lasted no where near as long. Along that tip: Would you have wanted Slave Traders (from the offset) to know 1 Timothy 1 applied to them when it prohibited "man-stealing"? Or would you have said such a thing does not apply, so don't worry about it?

Yes, whites used the Bible to kill blacks. I understand that as a historical fact. But they were obviously wrong in doing so, since it clearly says in Scripture that we ought not kill. Then again (in your words concerning homosexuality) that may just be my opinion. That is why your view is frightening Mel: It is your view, not mine, that leads to such destruction. It is your view that says "We all have our own opinions!" Well, the whites' opinion of such Scriptures were that Blacks should die. You would be hypocritical if you disagreed with them and denied that their opinion could be wrong.

And, no, I am not a people-pleaser sir. My point was that the same churches that say homosexuality in such passages were simply for such and such culture or time would start a riot if you told them that their partner committing adultery is not wrong, because our view of Adultery is not correct, and etc...


Mashuneh
2008-06-28 13:20:04
"Read the passages in both testaments. Had Paul been in the English colonies or the Americas do you think he would have walked up to unbelieving Masters and told them to let their slaves go? Or do you think that he would have given the Gospel, and let the outcome of its power show that slavery was wrong? "

Paul (and the writers who claimed to be "Paul") never ever said slavery was wrong or even hinted at it. One "Pauline" passage says that parents should not provoke their children to wrath, but did that change the power relationship between children and parents? Slave owners, as fundamentalists, were well aware of these passages that promote "kind" treatment of slaves. But they compared them to the authority and power that Scripture gave fathers over their wives and children.

Fundamentalists rarely actually investigate the theological debate over slavery because it's embarrassing and shows how fundamentalism just doesn't work.

The idea that Paul would have used the "power of the Gospel to convince them they were wrong" is absurd. Paul only told masters to "remember they have a master in heaven" (something that, by the way, many slaveowners said they were doing). So it's nice to know that based on your interpretation of the Bible, that you believe that slavery is not wrong--only "unkind" slave masters (whatever that means). It's amazing what contortions black people will twist themselves into in order to maintain their fundamentalism.

I assume you also believe that slaves that resisted their bondage were also in the wrong because they should have used the gospel to convince their slave masters, who had an economic stake in maintaining slavery, instead of doing something radical, like, say, taking steps to make themselves free. Interestingly, this is precisely what many proslavery folks argued as well. After all, the Bible does say that slaves should submit even to CRUEL masters (1 Pet 2:16-18). Of course, the notion of slavery itself is, to me, an abomination, Paul notwithstanding.

"Yes, the words are controversial, but just because something is controversial does not mean both sides could possibly be valid. "

Indeed. But the merits of a debate are determined by the arguments made, not because you dogmatically say, "your side is not legitimate."

" find the 'that was then and this is now' argument interesting, only because (once again) we do not use that for ANY OTHER SIN in Scripture."

This just reflects your incredible ignorance about the biblical world and your willingness to resort to absurdities. There are a variety of acts that the historic Church has held to be sins that were mitigated, at least by Protestants, including: so-called "Onanism" (masturbation) and the idea that sexual sins could take place even among married couples who engaged in sex acts that had the wrong motivation or were "unnatural," (by the way, the earliest Christian interpreters of Romans 1 argued that Paul was not referring to lesbians, but women who engaged in "unnatural" sex acts with men). In addition, when Scripture mandates certain social and church positions for women, we too have left those in the ancient world where they belong.

Bottom line: New ideas can prompt us to look at Scripture in a new light and recognize that the way that our spiritual ancestors saw things may not be appropriate for today. This is supported by the history of Israel and the Church. I love it when people like Christopher pretend as though theological innovation never happened. That's absurd on its face.


Ramses
2008-06-28 16:04:29
Mel Smith and Mashuneh Bravo to you, and I concur believe scripture is called the living word of God.

Mel Smith
2008-06-28 20:05:52
Ramses, thanks to you for the Bible info. See Christopher avoided some of my questions. EVERYTIME I debate a person who supports prejudice against gays, they always avoid certain questions you want them to answer. I asked for his opinion about this kid in high school who everybody think is gay. Is that kid a 'sinner' just because some of the heterosexual kids think he's gay? I did not get a response. Why would they assume the kid's gay? When I first saw the kid in the hallway, why did I say to myself, he's gay? And this kid dress just like the other students. If he's gay, what's his 'sin'? See, the problem are these destructive older scumbags who contribute to these young kids getting pick on in school.

Ramses
2008-06-28 22:42:37
Christopher: Knowledge without understanding is devoid of wisdom, to know is not to understand and to understand is not to believe. Leviticus and all of the Hebrew scripture exist for people we do not exist for it. The purpose of revelation was so that we might know and love God as He Knows and Loves us. The Ruah the breath of God that He breaths into the scripture are what make them sacred and life giving. The purpose of Scripture is God revelation of Himself to humanity not morality. Religious morality’s purpose to help us be like God who is love, thus sin is when we harm ourselves and/or others. Jesus. The Incarnate Word came as the fullness of Scripture and Revelation: He said love God, your neighbor and yourself. Paul said that in the person of Jesus and paschal mystery we are free from the law and bound by faith. If you cannot assent to these basic theological tenets we have no common ground and dialogue becomes futile.

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