Bush invokes Jefferson on fourth of July holiday

What hypocrisy. While he hails these people who were honest enough and had the integrity to go through the system and obey our laws, Mr. Bush for 8 years has turned his head the other way while tens of millions of lawbreakers who could give a rats ass about America and give the middle finger to our laws crash our border daily. What a slap in the face to these good new honest citizens. When is enough enough. Oh but htese lawbreakeers only want a better life for themselves, Oh yeah don't those that are taking the oath want the same thing?

JULY 4TH. – A COMMEMORATION OF ENLIGHTENMENT http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2008/07/july-4th-celebration-of-great-minds.html

He's a bad joke like that alleged speech about the former, proud slave owner who forced himself on his slave and beat the rest who was never free. Jefferson is no one to emulate.

Andrea comments, "...the former, proud slave owner [Jefferson] who forced himself on his slave and beat the rest who was never free."

You are flaunting your ignorance of history and are engaging in hyperbole to effect your personal racist agenda.

Thomas Jefferson fought against slavery. Many times he worked at introducing legislation to abolish slavery and to free slaves. When Jefferson wrote our Declaration of Independence, he included wording which condemned slavery. His wording was removed by others. Jefferson also wrote the Northwest Ordinance which forbade slavery within newly formed states of America. Jefferson wrote and sponsored many other acts of legislation during his lifelong fight against slavery.

Jefferson adamantly opposed slavery and took many actions to end slavery. Jefferson is or should be a hero to Black America.

On his slaves, Jefferson inherited his slaves from his father. Jefferson provided good lives for his slaves while working at freedom for his slaves. Jefferson was caught in a Catch-22 situation of opposing slavery while knowing if he set free his slaves, their quality of life would degrade and they would become slaves to others. Jefferson was also caught up in an economic situation. His setting free his slaves would financially ruin his farm and, in turn, financially ruin both his family, his slaves and families of his slaves. Jefferson elected to keep his slaves to protect both his family and their families from poverty.

Half and half Sally Hemings, consensus is she was Jefferson's lover after his wife died at a very young age of thirty-three. Hemings was Jefferson’s constant companion, including his stays in Europe. Jefferson displayed great respect for Hemings by his refusing to ever discuss her nor their relationship. A love relationship is a far cry from abusing a slave woman as you falsely claim.

Jefferson was trapped in a time period during which he could not simply free slaves nor could he legislate freedom for slaves. He was also trapped in a time period when love relations between races was taboo.

I know the pain of this taboo. My father, a Choctaw Indian, is unknown to me because love relations between whites and reds was taboo during the Sixties. My elders are sworn to antiquated secrecy of never discussing this to honor the dignity of my mother, both my white and red elders. I know his tribal last name, nothing more. I do, at least, know my blood lineage; this was given to me as a compromise.

Those readers who are interested in truth about Hemings and Jefferson, this is a short easy reading summary of what is known, presented by the The Thomas Jefferson Foundation,

http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings-jefferson_contro.html

Jefferson fought hard for freedom of slaves and fought hard for an end to discrimination based upon skin color. However, Jefferson had to work within the mores and perceptions of the time which limited his ability to end slavery.

Andrea, you are dead wrong about Thomas Jefferson and your continuing this deceit about Jefferson only serves to promote hatred and racism, by your own culture. You need to educate yourself, Andrea.

Okpulot Taha
Choctaw Nation

Thanks for the long, boring post purl and why slave owners were such good people to idolize, but, sorry, you and the others who put slave owners and rapists on a pedestal shows why you are as low as he was. But, then again, you seem to be a raicst with all the anti-black posts you have here, so, it comes as no suprise you would love him. Educate yourself and find a clue for why you harbor such hatred for black people, racism is wrong, no matter who you are. Now, I wonder if you will sit down for a 25 paragraph reply, bet you won't, that's how cyber cowards work.

Oh yeah purl gurl, about the "good lives" for slaves, beatings, rapes selling offspring on his plantation are the good life, only in the twisted minds of cyberspace posters who don't know the vile history of the so called peculiar institution. Do a google search on the horrors of it, then get back to me on how great a man he was. Its amazing that you who seems to think you know it all could be so crass, but, I guess that's par for your sort and to think you claim to be of Native blood, people who are still treated like dirt by the US government.

"You are flaunting your ignorance of history and are engaging in hyperbole to effect your personal racist agenda."

Okpulot Taha
Choctaw Nation

Andrea, don't waste your time with pearl girl, but you did shut her racist rant down as she had nothing to back up her trash as usual. She was up in here a few weeks ago advocating gun violence against black men, cheered for an Obama assassination, she hates blacks as much as one of her idols, the late bigot Jesse Helms. Her lack of common sense, history or anything else is each and every post, but, now she is saying the lives of a slave were all good? Kiralynne Schilitubi aka pearl girl, says "You are flaunting your ignorance of history and are engaging in hyperbole to effect your personal racist agenda," I guess she has found her own lack of a reason to post online since that describes her to a t.

A hero to black Americans? Thomas Jefferson??? Purl, I seldom read anything you write as I have never found one thing you post as interesting, but, do respect your right to believe in what you do, even though you don't allow it from others and resort to name calling and not a debate to back your beliefs. But, that's neither here nor there. However, sorry, a slave owner who took advantage of a young woman who had no say in the event is hardly a hero. Sad he gave up his slaves, which some did, it would be one thing, he kept them as they were assets, not out of some righteous thing. The justification of it being that period in time could also be used for the slaughter of millions of native Americans that many of that time did not consider humans, only savages in the way of their God given right to expand. While he may or may not have been the evil face of slavery with a whip on a horse, he is hardly someone that a black person would consider a hero, being a slave was not a 'good life' no matter who your master was, even if he was sleeping with you without your consent, even if his name was Thomas Jefferson. Soory, but, to say he should be a hero is a wee bit of a stretch, even for you.

Interesting how some blacks will actually deny historical facts to maintain a false belief of being a victim and to effect a racist agenda.

Okpulot Taha
Choctaw Nation

Purl, sorry, slavery was as wrong as the genocide of the native peoples by the same so called founding fathers, and, one alleged 'good' deed does not make him any better than the others. I realize that its hard for you to have any empathy for those who suffered under the worst form of enslavement the world has ever seen, but, on this one, even I have to call you out on it. And, you are way off to say that anyone who does not think that a black person should have Jefferson as a 'hero' is a total insult, but, sadly, you seem to think all blacks are some monolithic group who can't think for themselves and prefer to hurl your insults as its clear you have issues with us and as the one poster said people in glass houses, and, would you care to as you alwys do, put up your links for the great love the two of them shared? And, just how Sally Hemmings had a say in this so called relationship? Since when did slave women have the choice of being raped and by whom? You want to use the 'facts" for your lavish praise of the man who fought slavey to his death bed, put them up.

“Pardon me, allow me to ask, why am I called upon to speak here today? What have I, or those I represent, to do with your national independence? Are the great principles of political freedom and of natural justice, embodied in that Declaration of Independence, extended to us? And am I, therefore, called upon to bring our humble offering to the national altar and to confess the benefits and express devout gratitude for the blessings resulting from your independence to us?” Frederick Douglass, July 4, 1852, Rochester, N.Y. In the speech, known as “What to the Slave is the Fourth of July?” the editor/publisher of the North Star answered himself: “But such is not the state of the case. I say it with a sad sense of the disparity between us. I am not included within the pale of glorious anniversary! Your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between us. The blessings in which you, this day, rejoice, are not enjoyed in common.”

“Your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants, brass-fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to Him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy-a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States at this very hour.” Frederick Douglass Speech, 1852. And, to think that these words still ring true in many parts of this country in 2008.

Mrs. Mavis Gibson presents a challenge, "You want to use the 'facts' for your lavish praise of the man who fought slavey to his death bed, put them up."

Do you read "Slave Girl" tattooed upon my forehead?

Those and other historical facts are available to you right at your fingertips. You only need to expend a little bit of effort to become better educated. I provided a factual hyperlink, I am quite certain you can find others, on your own.

Truth you discover on your own, is the best of truths.

I will add some factual historical trivia which you can verify with no more effort than using your fingers.

Sally Hemings and others were paid generous wages by Thomas Jefferson and family. Hemings was provided with upscale clothes, provided with good living quarters, given freedom to leave Monticello to shop in town, provided training for job skills and afforded world travel.

Nonetheless, Hemings was still a slave, in name.

Hemings was offered freedom over in France. She could have walked away to freedom. Hemings declined and elected to remain with the Jefferson family. Later in life, one of Jefferson's daughters gave Hemings a special kind of freedom.

During the day, in Virginia, when a slave was set free, this slave had to leave Virginia within one year. This caused great hardship and tore apart families. Hemings was given a special freedom to move about, do what she wants, live were she wants through special paperwork written up by the Jefferson family. Had the Jefferson family granted her complete freedom, Hemings would have been forced to leave Virginia, forced to leave behind her family and her life. The Jefferson family displayed compassion by compromising current laws to protect Hemings from hardship. The Jefferson family worked "around" current laws to afford as much freedom as could be without causing harm. Hemings was truly set free, but not according to law. She remained a slave, in name.

Wages, good clothing, good food, health care, living quarters, training and education, world travel, an offer of complete freedom, more freedom than allowed by law, none of this, to me, smacks of slavery.

Not all of Jefferson’s slaves were treated as well. Some lived lives of hard labor, some were not offered freedom. None were mistreated, none were beaten, none were raped, none were lynched as common in other regions. Monticello offered a better life for slaves, not the best of a life, not a free life rather a life best as possible for the time period and circumstances.

Not all slave owners were mean vicious people as you would have readers believe. There are many cases of slaves being given their freedom and their choosing to remain with their former owners for the quality of life offered. All of this is relative to the time period and circumstances.

Yes, factually, there were some slave owners who were mean vicious people, but not all. There were many tragic events and there were many good events. Many were treated horribly, many were treated as best as possible for circumstances of the time period.

True widespread tragedy came after the end of slavery, came when hard cold racism replaced slavery at the end of our Civil War up until our modern times, until the days of Martin Luther.

Thomas Jefferson and family fought against slavery during their lives. Thomas Jefferson even included wording in our Declaration of Independence condemning slavery, wrote the Northwest Ordinance, fought for laws against slavery. He and family did all they could, within the constraints of the time period, to end slavery.

Nonetheless, there are those of Black America who portray Jefferson as amongst the worst and most hateful of slave owners, despite historical facts to the contrary. You deny known fact simply to support a deceitful personal agenda.

You may label me a racist as you and others do. This changes nothing and certainly this type of deceit on your part cannot change history; you cannot rewrite historical facts to legitimize a deceitful personal agenda.

Allow your fingers to do the walking, this is, if you are willing to follow your fingers to truth.

Truth will set you free, yes?

Okpulot Taha
Choctaw Nation

Well, purl, thank you for your reply and, I do appreciate your attempt at being civil as I know its hard for you on this site. I know much about the slave trade, and, as I stated, the treatment was inhumane, and, anyone who can read will acknowledge this. Owning another person is wrong and Jefferson fit right into the wrong category. So, I'll let you believe in the fairy tales that slave owners were good and decent people, and I will believe in proof, they all were vile racists, and, sorry, I don't deem you a racist, I don't know you or what's in your heart, although your words are filled with anger towards blacks for whatever reason, but, I do pity you as you really have issues with reality, but, to each his own its your right to feel the way you do, although life is far t short to hate anyone based on skin color or whatever reason you hate.

And, one last thing Purl, keep on posting, while I never agree with any of your posts, its good to see how some people feel about people who are different and are willing to not lie about it and are willing to stand up for what they think is right.

Mrs. Mavis Gibson writes, "I do appreciate your attempt at being civil...."

I am not civil. I am firm but fair. This annoys people, my being assertively truthful.

Mavis continues, "Owning another person is wrong...."

I fully agree. You are spot on right. Slavery, although typically sexual in nature today, is still a problem, a widespread problem.

This is today, not yesteryear. A different perspective for readers. Slavery was initiated by the British here in America. Jefferson included a condemnation of the British for slavery in our Declaration of Independence. This was removed by others as I wrote. Jefferson was against slavery and invested much effort into ending slavery. For this, he is a hero.

This different perspective is one of logic. Slaves arrived here in America from the Gold Coast, from the west coast of Africa. Clearly those slaves did not speak English, did not have job skills appropriate for western society, could not well survive on their own, here in America. If we cast ourselves back to the time period, do we say, "You are free, go your own way," in response to slavery? This would be to doom almost all slaves to starvation and eventual death.

Probably the most appropriate action at the very beginning of imported slavery would be to return those people to their homes, and never again bring in slaves. However, circumstances of the time period did not allow for this. Slavery became an institution and Black America began its roots as a cultural group.

As generations of black slaves became assimilated by our white western culture, those slaves became better adapted to survival here in America, but still lacked opportunity to move far ahead in life; education and job skills were still lacking.

Place yourself in Jefferson's position, place yourself in his moral dilemma. Jefferson knew slavery is morally wrong and fought against slavery. Jefferson also knew freeing his slaves would be to force an even harsher life upon his slaves, because of laws, because of a lack of education, because of a lack of job skills, because of circumstances of the time period.

What would you do? You are trapped in this situation with no good solutions. Would you do like Jefferson and continue slavery while providing as best of a life possible for slaves? Would you cut lose slaves and leave them to fend for themselves, a sure bet of absolute misery?

What would you do? Slavery and survival or freedom and misery? This is a horrible moral dilemma for any person to confront.

Point is Jefferson is known for his fighting against slavery. This is documented historical fact. Jefferson is also known for his compassion, for his helping slaves have a bit better lives. This is also documented historical fact. Jefferson was trapped between a rock and a hard place; he did the best he could with circumstances presented to him.

Also documented historical fact is many slave owners treated slaves in ways so horrific, we are lost for words. Ghastly, cruel, inhumane, would be some words to label how some slave owners treated their slaves.

Jefferson was not one of those slave owners. You have made a target of the wrong man.

Black America has elected to use Jefferson as a point of contention, but falsely so. Claiming Jefferson to be a murderous and cruel slave owner has impact but this is a false impact. Jefferson was a just, kind and compassionate man. Black America, using Jefferson as a target, only serves to make Black America look to be deceitful fools; people know better, historical facts know better.

This Jefferson issue needs to be considered within the context of the time period. Jefferson did the best he could for his circumstances, did better than almost all slave owners. Jefferson should be commended for his stance against slavery while he is trapped in time period circumstances which did not lend well to his cause to end slavery.

Again, Jefferson fought against slavery. This is well evidenced by his writings, his Declaration of Independence, his Northwest Ordinance, his treatment of his slaves, his words and many other actions by Jefferson which are part of historical facts. For the time period, Jefferson was way ahead of all others on this issue of slavery.

Black America is making a target of the wrong man. This diminishes the power of Black America's message about slavery and racism.

Black America needs to stick to the facts. Truth is where real power is found, even if an uncomfortable truth.

Okpulot Taha
Choctaw Nation

How can any blame black America for slavery? Online the cyber trolls! Tom Jefferson offered lip service and nothing more on the issue while raping his slave mistress. A good 'meal' of table scraps, and fewer beatings hardly makes him the great American hero. And as a 'white' guy to see someone twist the real facts is as disgusting as he was, but to the sicko's who troll online, par for the course.

Mrs. Mavis Bacon adds a kind note, in part, "...one last thing Purl, keep on posting...."

You know I will and as I please. Like you, I do not allow any to squash me under a thumb.

Returning to this logic of survival in America, or lack of survival skills by early black slaves, noting I am qualifying this as early black slaves before becoming assimilated into western culture.

Here is yet another perspective in keeping with my creative writing career and education.

Way back in time when slavery divided our country, led to war, led to much misery for America, a quick and simple solution to this problem of black slavery would have been to simply slaughter all black people. Reads really horrible, yes? Nonetheless, this was an option on the table during the time period.

What happened to my American Indian peoples? As you know, we were slaughtered into virtual extinction over four-hundred years. This could have happened to black slaves, as well. We know many black slaves were killed without thought. Not much was preventing a wholesale slaughter of blacks here in America. I suspect what kept your black ancestors alive is economic value as a source of cheap labor. Terrible thought, but this thought does seem to have some ringing truth.

Difference is my peoples were already here on our American lands, already more than adapted to survival in the wilds. This was our way of life. We presented little or no economic value.

Blacks were imported for foreign lands, from foreign cultures and could be easily dominated through our institution of slavery.

American Indians, no, we could not be dominated, we could not be enslaved, we could not be assimilated, we could fight back. Logical alternative of the time period was to slaughter us and we were brutally slaughtered.

Jefferson fought against black slavery and he fought against the slaughter of American Indians.

However, Jefferson was stuck with black slaves and not by choice; he inherited his circumstances from his father. Jefferson was not stuck with Indians. Jefferson devoted a lot of effort to ending black slavery yet acknowledged this could not happen in a short period of time because this would cause great misery for black slaves.

Jefferson made some protests against slaughtering Indians but being pragmatic, Jefferson knew there was little he could do to stop this genocide against my peoples. Jefferson chose to devote his efforts to ending slavery.

Jefferson fought for both of our peoples but more for blacks being a logical man; he could do something about slavery.

This returns to an awareness of ability to survive or lack of ability to survive. Early black slaves could not survive here in America; ours was not Africa, ours was an alien environment hostile to newly arriving black slaves.

Jefferson knew this. He was aware a sudden ending of slavery would lead to a massive death rate for black slaves. Jefferson also knew my peoples could survive quite well. Logic, then, dictates Jefferson address an issue he could change. This issue is black slavery.

This is an issue raised by those often labeled the "Old Black Guard" who propose change must come slowly, not suddenly. This is a display of wisdom and a problem for Obama. Jefferson worked toward gradual change, which is prudent.

Perhaps Black America is angry with Jefferson because he did not suddenly end slavery, which was an impossible task during his days, evidenced by our much later Civil War. Change did come about which was started by Jefferson and others like him, but this change took a long time.

An alternative to end this problem of black slavery could have simply been to slaughter your ancestors as happened to my ancestors. This would be quite the rude awakening for Black America to wake up in an alternate reality and discover you do not exist; your ancestors were slaughtered, you were never born, there is no Black America.

Jefferson does not deserve the treatment he is given by Black America. Jefferson was a great man and should be honored for his fight against slavery, just as I honor him for his fight against genocide of my peoples.

Mavis closes with, "...and are willing to stand up for what they think is right."

I am standing up for Jefferson because I believe this is right. In this sense, I standing up for Black America through my adamant stance Jefferson is being wrongly maligned by Black America. Should I cast some doubts, should I change the thinking of one or a few black Americans on this issue, then I have served The Good. Those who realize this mistaken concept about Jefferson will, hopefully, teach others. This will lead to a better understanding of our forefathers, a better understanding of circumstances long ago, and maybe lead to a better understanding between cultures of today.

Truth must be present if we are to live in peace.

Okpulot Taha
Choctaw Nation

It's difficult to imagine this country reaching its greatness in terms of money and military might, but off the backs of blacks. The amazing contribution of black people to this country is without question the main if not the only reason it has prospered and lasted. Give a statue and a monument to all the founding farthers. And when you get done with that. Find the most hollowed ground. And the finest building material. And lay a memorial for the slaves, African Americans who perished to violence by their fellow Americans post slavery, and every black veteran who ever served starting from the Revelutionary War. These are truley the Greatest "American" Heroes.... For it is in them the great American story rest. The quest for freedom. Even in the face of the most fierce hatred and violence the world has ever known. But for us to still have an unquestioned "LOVE" for a country that refuses to love us back is quite remarkable. "My country tis of thee sweet land of liberty" is my song too. And the most racist white in America cannot take it from me.

I agree Charles, whites get al the credit for the country, and, all blacks get are dismissed and the foolish notion that we should be grateful our ancestors were raped, beat, and killed while helping build the country. Jefferson is nothing but a dead white slave owner. He is no better than any other dead white slave owner.