Renounce anti-gay bigotry? Civil Rights and Gay Rights are not the same thing. I expanded my thoughts on the Citizens Journal, but you can't reduce race to a choice. We all have the right to love from consenting adults, but we don't get to choose our race. We always choose our partners. Not the same issue and a King should be on the forefront of making the differences clear.

Cecil Jones, I sometimes do not get you. I think you disagree for the hell of it. Sorta of a passive aggressive personality. If you are so predictable, it makes your arguments mute. That being said: If you think I chose to be gay you are insanely wrong. And what is race, because how it's defined biologically, there are like a thousand and growing different races as we speak. Being black became a cultural war. Every time certain demography mixes, a new race is born, just like plants and animals; we'll go crazy trying to keep up with it. Being gay is also biological. So if you want to argue biology, that’s another issue, but black in America is not biology but culture. Race means translatable across the geography. Gay rights in America are the same as civil rights. The movements started about the same time, and for a daughter of a man who said judge a person by the content of their character blatantly discriminates is blasphemous to the entire civil rights movement and her father. She is no different than any bigotry.

I agree, she should be denounced, her hatred of gays based on her "faith" is just as bad as those still hate her based on her skin color, she can't have it both ways, she can hate and then try to call others out on their hate, she is just as vile. That said, the only thing I do agree with her own is not to comapre white gays fights for rights to black people who were mauled by dogs, fire hoses, beat down in the streets by the thousands and treated worse than dirt, I don't see any thing similar. And, yes, I'm well aware that there is a black glbt community, one that deserves respect and equality across the board, including marriage if they want it, be in the military and whatever else straight Americans have as a right, but sorry, the struggles are not the same.

Wow. Are people still arguing in defiance of all the evidence that being gay is a choice? That's just silly. Now, the broader issue is gay rights/civil rights question. Dan Savage often says that the campaigns by African-Americans were *the* civil rights movement, while the gay rights movement is *a* civil rights movement. I think that's putting it right. Personally, I simply cannot stand to hear blacks who have been the beneficiaries of liberalism (not to mention my tax dollars!) for so long now turning on it. It reminds me of Waugh's definition of the snob - someone who wants to drawn the line of acceptability immediately below themselves.

I can only imagine how ashamed Mrs. Martin Luther King, Jr. must be of her daughter. Before her death Mrs. King was outspoken in her support of gay and lesbian civil rights and marriage. Apparently Bernice learned little from her esteemed parents. "I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice... But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King, Jr., said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere' ... I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King, Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brotherhood and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people." Coretta Scott King March 31, 1998

I thought she was gay? Not married, no children, husky voice...hmmm.

All comedy aside, her mother and late sister were supporters of gay rights because they understood that "rights" are not deemed to just one group of people. Cecil, any time one person gets treated better than another person, it's an issue of civil rights. It's just that simple. It's irrelevant if you think blacks are better than whites, or straights are better than gays, it boils down to their access to resources and their ability to live freely. When you come to understand that, you will be a full human. ;o)

Cecil Jones -- get a grip on reality. Sexual orientation is not a matter of personal choice, notwithstanding your opinion. I remember, as a young boy, knowing that there was something profoundly different about me, but I did not know what that difference was, or what it signified, until puberty hit. At that point, the nature of the difference in question became shockingly clear -- I found myself sexually and emotionally attracted towards other boys, instead of towards girls. Do you really believe that people choose to be gay given the degree of hatred, hostility, and bigotry displayed towards gay people, even in this day and age? Do you really believe that people make conscious decisions, to have sex with members of the same sex instead of with members of the opposite sex? The point made by the above article is simple: bigotry is bigotry is bigotry, regardless of the rhetoric in which it is cloaked, or the names of the people who invoke it. Judging people on the basis of their membership in a group with assumed characteristics is anathema to mainstream American values, and Bernice King should hang her head in shame... PHLIP CHANDLER

Being gay is not a choice- but even if it was the fact that someone else is telling you that you're not worthy of having the basic American rights is injustice- and quite frankly selfish hatred. Furthermore- several prominate black politicians who attended and served in SCLC when Dr. King spearheaded the group are in favor of gay marriage. The first that comes to mind is Senator Robert Ford from South Carolina who has authored bills recognizing gay/lesbian unions within the state. Senator Ford often uses the practices that King taught of compromise, understanding, and compassion for those who are different- I'm thinking if these anti-gay sentiments are still Bernice's way of thinking she could use a little guidance from "The Letter from a Birmingham Jail" where it is clear that being different gave no one the right to discriminate.

I was at that historic march and our THREE FOCUS POINTS WERE; Revitalizing our YOUTH, Reclaiming our State and Refocusing the Nation. A nation that was alledgedly built on Christian principles(another debate). No one called her out on the need we stressed for fathers to "man up". To say that Dr. King would've been on the other side of the street is pathetic. Because he associated with one known gay man doesn't make him a spokesperson for gay rights. Our focus that day was the desire to address the wicked state that we have fallen in.

Tom, dan savage has also repeatedly used racial slurs about the blacks and prop 8, so, he is hardly the one to be using as a foil to her nonsense and hate, he is just as hateful as she is, only his is based on skin color, or does he get a pass on e being a white, gay racist and she does not for being a black, homophobe? This is why so many in the black community can't and won't relate to this as the same issue, white gays spew racism and yet say they have to fight the same fight when we all know, white and gay is still better than black, straight or anything else in the good old US of A. And, as for your, "tax" dollars, umm, last time I checked, blacks paid taxes as well, liberal or conservative.

It is very difficult to change minds sometimes. To think being gay is a choice is almost laughable if it wasn't such a serious issue. As gay people, we will move forward, we will survive with or without Bernice King; although, it would be nice to have her recognize our basic civil rights and wise for her to accept them. But, if she is an old die hard bigot, she may not change her mind anytime soon and that's o.k. too because we've been around for thousands of years and we're still here. Sounds very familiar doesn't it.

"That Gays can choose" is a "judgement"! Ask any Gay person ... the ONLY qualified person who can give any truth to this! I agree, it's not the same as the Black's civil rights struggle. Remember though, Black people didn't have to suffer being disowned by their parents, or condemned by their church because of who they were! God created Gays for God's reasons...curb the overpopulation of the world...find loving homes for children abandoned by straights. We need to trust and have faith in God's plan! Pastors still go on preaching "DISCRIMINATION" against their Gay brothers and sisters, not knowing the hurt, pain, suffering and even death they are creating in the lives of young Gay children! Ms King may "choose" to cling on to her "ego" and be righteous about the matter, or use her "heart" to find the truth! Bottom line will always be the same: "WHAT ONE SOWS, SO SHALL THEY REAP"!

I, a gay white man, marched for black rights in Alabama in the 1960's. I was beaten, arrested, jailed, and worse for doing so. I fought and marched so that Bernice King could be considered a full human being in the eyes of the law. However, the African-American community's desire to spit in my face does not make me regret doing so.

Mike, Dan Savage is patently not a racist. That's a silly thing to say. He's explicitly denounced the occasionally offensive comments made by gays after proposition 8. More importantly, he's not arguing for anyone's rights to be restricted - Bernice King is. Equating the two is silly. On taxes, black people disproportionately benefit from the liberal welfare state - that's simply a fact. And it seems bizarre that the beneficiaries of liberalism would turn against it in order to enforce a moral code which was previously, in starkly similar ways, used against them in recent history. None of this is controversial.

Mike, one more thing. The reason many blacks won't get behind gay rights has nothing - *nothing* - do with the occasional racism coming from the gay community. It has everything to do with the currents of hyper-masculinity, mysogyny, and ignorance which are all too common in black communities. (I know each of these have complex and historically-rooted causes, but it doesn't change the fact they exist) Are you saying that blacks were all for gay rights until they heard the occasional offensive comments from gays after prop 8? Come on Mike.

Tom, care to show real proof that dan savage isn't a racist? Sorry, he wrote the racial slur on his blog, took if off when caught, so, I'll let my eyes which saw them along with many others and his actions speak for his racist actions as does his vile catty, not so subtle slurs about blacks every time he's on TV. If, you choose him as your hero, go for it, I for one denounce him as a racist just as much as I denounce King for her homophobia, both are wrong and both need to be called out for it. As for Prop 8, CNN's false report has long been since discounted and debunked as a mere google search will prove, too bad all the racial slurs spewed in LA, the Castro on election night and just about every white gay blog then and now were not. Racism in the gay community? Child, that is old news, we all know its alive and well, has been and will continue to be, but, that said, sure not all white gays are racist, but, it sure does seem to have a larger percentage that the rest of society, with bitter gays like dan savage as your spokesperson/heroine, good luck trying to get people to see your issues. As for the "welfare" state stoerotype, sorry, yet another lie that has been debunked, and, this sweeping generalization you have is typical of your kind, and, can you ell me where I can get all the free tax dollars you are paying for blacks, thanks in advance for the link LOL or maybe Ronald Reagan and the rest of the GOP can show me how to get rich off of you wealthy, white over taxed posters that the blacks seem to be getting since I missed out on how to get my Lexus without having a job and college degree, oh yeah, blacks that wok and pay taxes don't count. But, sadly, your type is why the Bernice King's of all races keep the glbt community down.

Being gay, unlike religious affiliation, is not a choice. Preaching from the pulpit against gay rights is like preaching from the pulpit in support of slavery. It's just wrong. Mrs CS King came out in support of gay rights, and believes MLK would have, as well. Julian Bond has spoken out in support of gay rights saying, not one group can lay claim to civil rights, as it encompasses everyone. If an injustice is being done to a group of people because of who they are, it should be met with strong opposition. I have faith the Rev Bernice King will realize her past reactions were ill conceived and do the right thing.

When did the oppressed become the oppressor? Black people should realize that as long as people are treated differently and are the object of scorn for their skin color, gender, handicap or now sexual preference, it is a civil rights issue!! Anyone who disagrees is just being stubborn and, or ignorant. Being Gay is no more a choice than African Americans being born with Black skin. I am sure that most Gay Black people, considering the amount of hatred which is directed at them, would choose to be straight. But it is not possible. Most Gay people are not bisexual and cannot shut down one sexual proclivity for another, by choice in an instant.

This conversation ITSELF is immoral. Watching human beings try and justify their reasons for treating human beings as something less than human beings is immoral on its face. No matter WHO initiates it - black, gay, fat, skinny, white, ugly - WHATEVER. Debating people's humanity is ugly, wrong, immoral, ungodly and says WAY more about the person initiating the 'debate' than it does those on the unfortunate side of its abuse. WAKE UP TO YOURSELVES. As far as if gay is a choice or not... If it IS, it certainly would not take someone very long to make the opposite choice once they experience the Apartheid directed at gay citizens, now would it? It always amazes me that we as human beings will always fight for our right to treat others badly, but never the other way around.

Tom Edwards,

You might want to check yourself regarding the comment, "Personally, I simply cannot stand to hear blacks who have been the beneficiaries of liberalism (not to mention my tax dollars!) for so long now turning on it."

Get it straight. Black people have fought, bled and died for everything they have gained in American society, including their birthright as citizens. If anyone has been a beneficiary its, white women, other racial minorities and gays riding the coattails of battles waged and won by blacks. Black people have been on the front line in the struggle from the moment we stepped off the slave ship. You got a lot of nerve attempting to characterize blacks as mere "beneficiaries" of liberalism. Far from being mere beneficiaries, black folk are in fact the architects of liberalism. For that matter the whole damn country has been the beneficiaries of the African-American struggle.

Cecil- You are obviously not too keen of what it is to be gay. Being Gay is not a choice, and i'm highly offended. Mrs. King should be ashamed of herself as a decendent of Dr. King, who would have never thought it was right to deny ANYONE'S civil right's. As an Afro-American lesbian, I never understood how any Afro-American would agree with a violation of one's civil rights.

Why do non-gays have to be vilans just because they dont agree with homosexuality. Gays shouldnt be hated, or miss-treated. But if this was such a natural thing, why does nature show us the opposite. We wouldve been able to pro-create with our same sex, if this was a preference for us to decide, or how we were born. But of all the sexual creatures on this planet, none of them have same sex relations. Is that by chance? Or is that evidence that this lifestyle choice is simply un-natural.

Mike - so this is what it's come to - you have to prove someone *isn't* a racist in order to take their completely reasonable ideas seriously. That all said, I read his supposedly racist column just now and if you're offended by it you're simply not reading it right. It's possible to disagree with the guy on the points he raises, but calling him a racist because of a column in which he says he wept with joy that we elected a black president seems a little hysterical. Your reaction to my social programs point was similarly unreasonable: I argued that blacks consume a massive amount in social services, and there can be little controversial about that. If you thought I meantthat social services meant luxury cars, you're reading me wrong too. I don't deny there is racism in the gay community, though when you find majorities of that community voting to strip blacks of basic civil rights, when you find gays beating blacks up, or railing against their very existence from the pulpit, I'll take some notice. Until then, calm down. Now for Robin: I think liberalism in the way I meant it has very little to do with the courageous and hard-won civil rights battles waged by blacks. Rather, it has a lot more to do with the great depression and the second world war. This does not detract from the momentous nature of those battles, but merely to point out that they've largely been a result of and not a cause of liberalism.

Bernice King spits on her father and mother's legacy by spewing such hate-filled rhetoric towards any group hated for being themselves. Especially because it's politically advantageous to do so. These die hard evangelicals are the biggest bunch of hypocritical bastards anyway and they seem to dominate the South and the Republican Party!

In my estimation this article is an unfair characterization of Ms. King as a gay rights bigot. I fear Mr. Hutchinson has employed shock jock tactics (i.e., make a provocative statement) aimed at getting a rise out of people and garnering attention to himself.

As I understand it President Obama does not support gay marriage, but prefers civil unions instead. It was Bill Clinton who gave us the Defense of Marriage Act as well as don't ask don't tell in the military.

Bernice King is a minister of the gospel. Without getting into a debate about the Bible, I presume she accepts the Biblical teaching that homosexuality is a sin and that is the basis of her objection to gay marriage. Opposition to gay marriage on religious grounds is not tantamount to being anti-gay across the board.

As for Dr. King and Coretta we don't know what stand they would have taken on the "specific" issue of gay marriage. It's worth noting that Mr. Hutchinson never flat-out states that Martin and Coretta supported gay "marriage." He simply says they fought bigotry and discrimation of every type.

I have no doubt that Bernice King likewise believes in fighting bigotry and discrimination of every type. If she's a Christian (which I accept that she is) I am sure she does think what happened to Matthew Sheppard or any other victim of gay-bashing violence is a-okay. Likewise, as a Christian I'm sure she does not support mistreatment of the LGBT communnity. Because it is possible to secure equality of treatment for gays with respect to rights afforded cohabiting couples through other means besides "marriage" (e.g., civil unions) it is patently unfair to demonize, villify and castigate those who do not support gay marriage on purely religious grounds. Ms. King nor anyone else should be required to abandon their religious principles because others disagree. The lack of respect by one side toward the other does not advance the debate nor help anyone's cause.

As I have argued in the past, I think the solution to the gay marriage issue is to take government out of the business of "marriage" altogether and convert the entire system to civil unions for everyone insofar as legal rights enjoyed by cohabiting couples. IMO we will NEVER divorce the word or the concept of "marriage" from it's religious connotations. As such I predict there will never be a meeting of the minds on the issue of gay "marriage". That's why I say for purposes of one's legal rights make it civil unions for everyone (gay or straight) and leave "marriage" to the church. If want that traditional ceremony in a church find a church to marry you, but that ceremony will have no bearing on your legal rights.

I believe that Tom and Mike represent a current trend in the relationship between the African American and the gay communities. It is true that the African American community is generally homophobic and the gay community is generally racist. Interestingly, both ignore the voice of people who are both gay and black. Many in the black community see the gay community as white and therefore not a marginalized group. They are partial right. Racial minorities tend not to be visible in the larger gay community and have trouble integrating. In general, blacks are forced to create their own marginal communities outside of both the black and the gay communities. That said, the gay community sees the black community as hypocritical -- which is also partly true. The gay community often cannot see the reason why blacks are not sympathetic to the cause of gay rights, which has parallels to the black civil rights movement. They are partially right as well. Many black civil rights leaders and groups have not or have been slow to adopt the cause of gay rights. The truth is that race discrimination is different than sexual discrimination, but both severely affect individuals. I believe both forms of discrimination should be fought against. Instead I find both groups trying to suck up the majority. By this I mean, both groups try to distinguish themselves the other -- blacks from gays and vice versa- in hopes of securing acceptance from the majority. We need to stop playing this game and repair this relationship.

Omari, I really like what you wrote. Plus there is strength in numbers.

Omari... what you're spot on, this is a powerful weapon used by the evangelical- right and Republican establishment in society. Divide and conquer. When there is a hierarchy in society those at the top fight tooth and nail for the status quo, leaving those at the bottom to slaughter each other for the crumbles. I can only imagine MLK turning in his grave because of this. Bernice King has a right to her views but when she goes out campaigning against gay rights she crosses the line. What ever happened to separation of church and state? The mormon church has directly involved itself in fighting gay rights and yet still enjoys tax exemptions.

"As for Dr. King and Coretta we don't know what stand they would have taken on the "specific" issue of gay marriage." @Robin Dr. King never addressed same-sex marriage during his life time. Coretta King, however, gave several speeches in public where she supported marriage equality for gays. Coretta has also said that her husband would have supported marriage equality for gays if he had lived and who knew him better than her. Perhaps, Coretta was a supporter of marriage equality for gays because she knew or sensed that her own daughter, Bernice was/is a Lesbian. Bernice is a SELF-HATING Lesbian. This is common knowledge in Atlanta.

I really do appreciate the wide range of responses to the various issues that face the Black community and America, however my opinion is just as valid as one that is gay or straight. The difference is similar to bias. If you are defending your lifestyle, I'm certain you'll never see someone else's point of view. You have a vested interest in the outcome. It is you choice and duty to passionately defend what you believe. In the defense of Gays here, I've heard the term "Biological", "Profoundly Different", and "Choice." What line do I get in to choose my race? If I want to be gay, I know the line forms at the Men's room of the airport. It's a choice and I will never think otherwise because that's the truth I passionately defend. To be Gay it requires a physical action to join the club. Blackness is a gift bestowed upon us at a higher level. If we could change or choose color how many "Blacks" would be in here talking about inequity?

Cecil, you're absolutely right in defending your opinion; however, since you put it out there your comment is both insulting and narrow in scope. Stick to what you know. Many of us also feel that being gay is "a gift bestowed upon us". All of us aren't walking around with our head hanging down waiting in the line in the men's room at the Airport. Not only is that absurd but also an absolute bigoted statement. One could easily ask how you know so much about the lines in the Airport. Be fair not narrow. Stick with your opinion, but leave the insults out. Everyone deserves Civil Rights. If being Gay doesn't have an impact on your life negatively, leave it alone.

elg, Language in this whole debate is key. I would expect Dr. King and Coretta to support marriage equality for gays. It's imminently possible to support marriage equality for gays without supporting "gay marriage." As I stated earlier post, civil unions provide marriage equality for gays. In my estimation to avoid the religious mine field inherent in the concept of "marriage" I think the smartest route to get us where we want to go is take government out of the business of marriage. Stop the government from issuing "marriage" licenses altogether and convert to a system of civil unions for everyone (gay or straight). Because of the particular religious conotations associated with the word "marriage," I believe gay marriage should be treated as an issue unto itself within the spectrum of gay rights. As I said eariler, as a Christian, I find it hard to believe Bernice King supports the mistreatment of the LGBT community. It's possible to support gay rights without supporting gay marriage. I repeat, we can secure marriage equality for gays through the system of civil unions. President Obama himself supports civil unions over gay marriage as I understand his position during the campaign. When religion is a factor in the equation you can count on an impasse once the shouting dies down. It's just like abortion - another political issue with deep religious overtones. The pro-choice people and the anti-choice people will likely never agree and we'll never resolve the question as long as one side attempts to villify the other as murderers and baby killers. There has to be mutual respect and an effort to understand each other's perspective if there's any hope of reaching resolution. I ask you this, if an individual supports civil unions for everyone but not gay marriage, how does that make that individual anti-gay rights or anti-gay?

Ooops. Didn't mean to have that all run together.

elg,

Language in this whole debate is key. I would expect Dr. King and Coretta to support marriage equality for gays. It's imminently possible to support marriage equality for gays without supporting "gay marriage."

As I stated earlier post, civil unions provide marriage equality for gays. In my estimation to avoid the religious mine field inherent in the concept of "marriage" I think the smartest route to get us where we want to go is take government out of the business of marriage. Stop the government from issuing "marriage" licenses altogether and convert to a system of civil unions for everyone (gay or straight).

Because of the particular religious conotations associated with the word "marriage," I believe gay marriage should be treated as an issue unto itself within the spectrum of gay rights. As I said eariler, as a Christian, I find it hard to believe Bernice King supports the mistreatment of the LGBT community. It's possible to support gay rights without supporting gay marriage. I repeat, we can secure marriage equality for gays through the system of civil unions. President Obama himself supports civil unions over gay marriage as I understand his position during the campaign.

When religion is a factor in the equation you can count on an impasse once the shouting dies down. It's just like abortion - another political issue with deep religious overtones. The pro-choice people and the anti-choice people will likely never agree and we'll never resolve the question as long as one side attempts to villify the other as murderers and baby killers. There has to be mutual respect and an effort to understand each other's perspective if there's any hope of reaching resolution.

I ask you this, if an individual supports civil unions for everyone but not gay marriage, how does that make that individual anti-gay rights or anti-gay?

No religion has the RIGHT to spew hatred and falsehoods under the name of God. Religion is behind some of the most inhuman acts and deadliest wars on earth, caused by its hatred and lies. For example: Under the name of God and sanctioned by religious leaders, what could be more inhuman then a justice system beating a person for being gay; gluing his anus shut; and then force feeding him a laxative? You think something like this could never happen in the U. S.? It could if religious nuts got their way/freedom! Trying to soften their image, some supposedly religious people are now espousing: Love the sinner but hate the sin, just do not do the act. I refuse to accept their kind of love that tries to force shame and guilt on gays. Cecil Jones: Do you believe in scientific facts that being gay is not a choice?

MLee,

What religion promotes beating gays, gluing their anus shut and force feeding them laxatives?

You say religious people are "now" espousing love the sinner but hate the sin as if that's something new among Christians. That ain't new, its been part of Christian teaching from the time Jesus came on the scene.

As I said before, when religious principles or beliefs are part of the equation people with differing views are bound to reach an impasse. I just wish people could do it without trying to demonize one side or the other and do it in a spirit of respect for one another.

I believe LGBT people should be treat as fairly and humane as any marginalized group. Having said this, I don't think that the LGBT community, shouldn't try to call gay rights "civil rights." It's just apples and oranges. What are they fighting for ending DADT and DOMA? If you think that inacting laws will end homophobia you are sadly mistaking. We had the civil rights act for 40+years. And do you think we are in a "post racial" society?

This is a tough topic, Bernice King really needs to stop with her hateful tone as god don't like ugly, but, at the same time, black gay men and women need to come out in her church and other black churches and stand up to her and those who are like her that need to be educated on gays, and, that black gays are as part of the black community as her and her money grubbing, church cronies. Stop playing that piano on Sundays, singing in the choir and going deaf to the gay bashing after they sing, ushering, stuff like that and most of all stop giving money since that's what talks at the church more than anything else. At the same time its not only the loud Bernice King of the world spewing hate, its also in the Hispanics and Asian communities as well, they just are not dumb if enough to do it as loud and in your face As long as the face of gay America is the rich, blond white guys dancing half naked on cars at a gay pride rally, black church folks like Bernice will continue to spew hate. And, one thing is also for sure, the white gays sure have no issue spewing their own racism, I guess in that they show they still have the power to hate as much as straights when their white skin is their shield, like the one up in here talking about blacks getting government money, the most tired, racist stereotype of all, when we all know, poor whites have been on the dole longer and in far greater numbers.

Stop trying to compare President Obama with Bernice King on Gay marriage. During his campaign in a debate on a gay TV network, President Obama stated that although his religion is against gay marriage he would not let his own religious beliefs dictate his actions and policies on any issue if elected president. Being practical, he said there is no way he could convince the nation and Congress to make gay marriage legal at the national level. However, he stated that he believed it was possible for him to get legislation passed legalizing gay civil unions with all of the privileges as marriage.

It is usually the DL sister and brother that clammer the loudest about gays! I am a 62 year old black woman who believes in civil rights for ALL people. Bernice King is a down low sister who is empowered by self-loathing. Shame on her and shame on the SCLC for voting her into power.

@Robin Civil unions and marriage are NOT the same thing. Civil unions and marriage are NOT equal. LGBT people should have the SAME right to get MARRIED as heterosexual people. Don't segregate me. Separate can NEVER be equal. BTW, many MARRIAGES do not take place in "church": it's called civil marriage. A person married by a 'justice of the peace' or a judge is just as married as someone who gets married by a preacher in a church. BTW, no preacher has to marry a couple they don't want to. There are plenty of GAY CHURCHES and GAY FRIENDLY CHURCHES that are ready and willing to marry same-sex couples who want to be married in a church.

Okay, it's time to take off the "Kid Gloves" on the Gay topic. Why do Gays get a break in the public debate? Shame doesn't seem to work because we dance around the subject for the sake of being "Politically Correct" and "Kid Friendly." We don't want to expose what we are really discussing in fear of contributing to the delinquincy of minors, but if we don't just speak to the subject some foolishly believe this is a "Civil Right." Sexual activity is a choice. It's not a crime or deviant behavior if it's between two consenting adults done in private. Race is a character trait imposed on people at birth. You could argue that homosexual tendancies are imposed too, but it requires a physical act to be gay. Do I need to be more graphic to make my point clear or should I just split? Some people in their passion can bend over backwards to make anything seem right. Sex is a choice, it's not a crime, but it's not a civil right. It's a choice that must be protected, but it shouldn't ever get "Extra Rights." Who you do doesn't matter as much as what you do. I actually support Gays. That's why I know about the Airport Men's Room. I can change partners, but I can't change color.

She should before someone begins revealing a story she would not want to hear.....

I find it amazing how little you understand anything about the bible. The bible is antigay so how can you expect a minister of faith be supportive of it. The Bible is very clear about the issue. It's not some vague position open to different opinions. According to you, the Pope should support gay marriage???? I guess the apostles and early church were not progressive enough for you????? According to you if you don't support gay lifestyle then you are a bigot??? Most of american do not support gay marriage so they most be bigots?

MLee -- What's your beef. The statement I made about Obama is no different from what you said. He supports civil unions for same sex couples.

elg,

I have to presume you are not reading carefully nor correctly comprehending what I have said.

First off, my suggestion is to take government out of the business of marriage altogether and adopt a system of civil unions for EVERYONE (gay or straight). That would effectively dispose of the argument that homos and heteros are not being treated the same under the law.

Secondly, I'm well aware that a church ceremony is not required for two people to get married. My point regarding church/religious marriage ceremonies was directly related to my suggestion of adopting civil unions for EVERYONE. If we were to adopt such a system anyone (homo or hetero) could still get married in a church if they can find a church willing to marry them, but that ceremony would carry no legal weight in the system of civil unions for EVERYONE that I'm proposing. The rights of inheritance, tax benefits, familial rights all the rights that come from what we currently call marriage would only accrue through an application for a civil union.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about homosexuality. My comment regarding church cermonies had nothing to do with suggesting churches won't marry gay couples. I'm well aware that some will and some won't as is the case for heterosexual couples. There are churches that refuse to marry some straight couples if they don't successfully complete a course of premarital counseling.

Shooper: What you mean is your interpretation of the bible. Please stop separating God from His children. Spreading hate and homophobia in the name of the Lord! May God have mercy on your ignorance. But you lie and we know who Jesus said the Father of lies is.

The words about Jesus intimate that men who are kingdom worthy should castrate themselves. Why don't we see good Christian men like Cecil Jones, make this choice? Aledgedly Jesus was A-SEXUAL. i mean no Reference to the "MORNING WOODY" or "GETTING A HARD ON" for a fine Maiden. Man I wouldn't want to follow an Asexual Jesus. Yea Christian Men should just castrate themselves to end this Christian Virus. check Matt 19:12 KJV and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake.

"You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about homosexuality." @Robin Except for your "chip on your shoulder about homosexuality" remark, I don't have a problem with your most recent comment. You know, white people once accused any black person who pointed out any racial inconsistency of having a 'chip on his/her shoulder'. The new version of that is "you're playing the race card". Let me put it like this. LGBT people do not have the right to be married in 45 of 50 states in the U.S. And even in those 5 states where they can marry, their marriages are not recognized on the FEDERAL level. LGBT people had the right to marry TAKEN AWAY by voters in Maine yesterday. The SAME thing happened in California in 2008. Why wouldn't I have a "chip on my shoulder" about homosexuality? Or, more specifically, marriage equality, i.e., the right of same-sex couples to MARRY. But you, as a heterosexual (I assume), don't have to concern yourself with any of that. I'm depressed although I don't live in Maine. I'm calling it a day.

@Cecil, I don't have sex in airport bathrooms or any bathroom for the matter. If that's your thing, I say have bail money. i find it disturbing when people talk about being gay they automatically go to seedy caricutures of deviant behavior. I'm sure the downlow movment had a lot to do with that, and because you mentioned you can easily switch partners-- indicates maybe you fit that description. You have no right to defend or argue gay rights if you haven't decided your fight. Don't use "we" when you really mean "me". I don't argue that it's probably a choice for you, or your mental stability.

I had this exact argument on Huffingtonpost. I said, and I stick by my words, that I think gays should rename "gay marriage" to "civil marriage." I don't understand why there is such a fight for the word. I mean, do gays really want to get married in a church that doesn't respect their life? I personally feel it's a fight to normalize their childhood gods. I would argue gays themselves don't think of themselves as equal. They will fight to the end of the earth for a word. If I ever get married, I am not going to call my partner my husband, take his last name or give him my last name, because neither one of us own each other. I will call him my partner for life, I can say we have a civil marriage for legal reasons, and that's it. I just want for us to be able to claim each other benefits, insurance, be able to visit each other in the hospital, my estate to go to him when I die. I can do that now, technically.

Bravo Neo:With the state of marriage in the heterosexual community, I do not understand why gays want so much. I believe in civil rights for all Americans but maybe the Washington State approach would be more beneficial might be Domestic Partnership with all the rights that accompany a marriage! They, the white gay community appear to want to blame every defeat on the president, which is ludicrous. In California, they blamed on him and African Americans now him again. Why, are they not they addressing these Religious Communities in this case, the diocese of Portland and how these fights against citizen’s civil rights affect their tax-free status .The focus perhaps should be that these are not domestic or relational issues but a civil rights issue with equal protected under the constitution. That which we call a rose...CIVIL MARRIAGE.

Ersula 2009-11-03 19:29:10It is usually the DL sister and brother that clammer the loudest about gays! I am a 62 year old black woman who believes in civil rights for ALL people. Bernice King is a down low sister who is empowered by self-loathing. Shame on her and shame on the SCLC for voting her into power.......................... Ersula, I have thought for years that Bernice King suffers from a bad case of internalized homophobia. My gadar is usually right on target, and in my opinion, the girl is frustrated. A lot of us fight against the very thing that we see and feel within ourselves. I've been there, so I have no animosity toward sister King. I'm praying for her.

With respect to the last post of Ramsis, since the White gay leaders could not blame the defeat of gay marriage in Maine on African Americans because very few Blacks live in that state, they targeted President Obama. Blacks have never been MORE homophobic than Whites. It is just one of the many White myths about Blacks. Some Black gays may buy into this myth, since Black homophobia affects/hurts Black gays more, because it is closer to home and in many cases displayed by loved ones. I am also wondering why White gays are not addressing White religious communities active in the defeat of gay marriage proposals. You know, Blacks in Africa accepted homosexuality in their cultures, before they were converted to Christianity by Whites.

What anti-gay bigotry isn't she a HOMOSEXUAL?

Ron Lee you soooooo crazy. LOL

I've sold sex toys. I've had deep conversations about all forms of sexuality and behaviors. I've learned not to be frightened by them, but I also know I don't have to embrace them all. To each their own as long as the acts are consentual. The Gay Debate is about "Benefits." If a Heterosexual can get money for being married and straight, then why can't someone gay get paid too? I'm for Equal Rights not Extra Rights. If who we do becomes more important than what we do, we have chaos in the office and in the courts. Some of you who think I hate "Gays" will be shocked to find I'm a big supporter because I'm for fairness and equity. I am not gay or even curious. I'm precious.

She isn't the head of the ALCU. Southern CHRISTIAN Leadership Conference- See that second word? Enough said.

Brooke ok she a christian, so what??? Does that give her permission to be homophobic??? Dosn't the bible states that women can not be in power or head of the church???. I guess it depends on who reads it and their motives right????

In the law and the prophets, which is called the bible, God who's name is YHWH has set forth the direction tghat man and woman are to take in their sexuality and every other avenue of life which is called direction. I cannot believe how blind our so called intellectual brothers are to think they should be trying to fight the abominab le and fruit fruitless cause of sodomites.

What is a "Sodomite" but a person who lived in the city of Sodom? Ezekiel 16:49 says why the city was destroyed: 49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. 52 Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous. It says nothing about homosexuality. The men of Sodom wanted to RAPE angels. Do you know that in the original language of the Bible (Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic) there is no word for homosexual? Look it up. On another note, I am a lesbian. I have no desire to force my views on anyone. I couldn't care less if you agree with my sexuality. If you don't agree with gay marriage, don't enter into one. However, I have major issues with people spouting scripture out of context. We have become so lazy, that we are told what to believe and how to interpret the Bible without digging in for ourselves. It takes time, and effort to do this, but if this is the faith you proclaim, it should be no problem. Furthermore, though I do see the issue of gay marriage as a civil rights issue, I do not like when non blacks compare it to the civil rights struggle of the past generations. Mainly, because, I do not have to tell an interviewer that I am gay, but my blackness is as apparent as daylight. They can hide their gayness, and not lose privilege because they are not black - not a fair comparison. Marriage is a civil union. As civil institutions go, it is non-religious in nature. The spiritual aspect comes with the ceremony, and each ceremony is different depending on the religious beliefs of the couple. To that end, to argue that gay marriage is wrong, from a Christian perspective, one would have to argue against the marriage of atheists, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhist, etc., because their ceremonies have nothing to do with the Christian idea of marriage. Yet, they are allowed to legally marry. In this country, it is a civil institution, not a religious one. Understand the difference. I have never seen anyone picketing in opposition to the marriage of one atheist to another, or a Jew to Christian. Does the Bible not say "do not be unequally yoked"? This is just the pet argument of the day. Tomorrow, it will be something else.

She really needs to get out of the pulpit and get some therapy for her hate and stop worrying about what consenting grown folks do in thier homes. And, she needs to stop using the name of her parents, those King kids are too much with that as well and have done nothing to better society like their parents.

There is nothing wrong with PREACHING THE WORD OF GOD. The bible clearly stated that Homosexuality is wrong. However, we as Christians shouldn't judge others. When we die, we are going to have to answer for what we did in our own lives not some one else. If someone chooses to a certain lifestyle, who are we to judge? That is one of the common principles in the bible besides love thy neighbor. As Christians, we should pray for them but not condemn them.

What the Scriptures Say on: Homosexuality A perspective statement :- The Bible calls us to see ourselves in these lights: 1) In the light of God's holiness in which "there is none righteous no not one".(Romans 3:10) 2) In the light of God's mercy - "for God has bound over all men to disobedience that He might have mercy on them all." (Romans 11:32) 3) 3) In the light of His salvation - "and that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:11). The homosexual is a sinner, on whom God wishes to bestow mercy, and to bring to the point of salvation and the process of sanctification. There has been a lot of controversy over the sin of homosexuality with a large lobby pressuring Christians not to call homosexuality a sin but to see it as a "valid alternative lifestyle". In reaction to this, and I must say generally in "over-reaction" to it there has been a scathing and hostile denunciation of homosexuality by certain Christian leaders. In order to help you think through this issue I have collected all the Scripture references I could find and given a brief comment on their meaning and summarized it toward the end. I have not touched on the specifics of pastoral application. This article is long enough and the pastoral approach should be basically the same as that for any life-dominating sin. Homosexual Lusts (Romans 1:26-28 NKJV)26} For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. {27} Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. {28} And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; Note: Homosexual lusts, both female and male are called "vile passions" "against nature" and "not fitting". Homosexual Acts (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NKJV) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, {10} nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. {11} And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. (Leviticus 18:22 NKJV) 'You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. (Leviticus 20:13 NKJV) 'If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. (1 Timothy 1:9-11 NRSV) This means understanding that the law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, {10} fornicators, sodomites, slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching {11} that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. Note: The concept here is that of homosexual genital intercourse. The O.T defines this as "you shall not lie with a male as with a woman" calls it an abomination and prescribes the death penalty . In the NT homosexuality is listed among the major acts of law-breaking and those who committ homosexual acts cannot inherit the kingdom of God. However hope is held out in that the repentant homosexual can be "washed, sanctified and justified" - free of condemnation just like any other believing church member. (1 Cor 6:11) Male Homosexual Prostitution (Deuteronomy 23:17,18 NIV) None of the daughters of Israel shall be a temple prostitute; none of the sons of Israel shall be a temple prostitute. {18} You shall not bring the fee of a prostitute or the wages of a male prostitute into the house of the LORD your God in payment for any vow, for both of these are abhorrent to the LORD your God. (1 Kings 14:24 NRSV) there were also male temple prostitutes in the land. They committed all the abominations of the nations that the LORD drove out before the people of Israel. (1 Kings 15:12 NRSV) He put away the male temple prostitutes out of the land, and removed all the idols that his ancestors had made. (1 Kings 22:46 NRSV) The remnant of the male temple prostitutes who were still in the land in the days of his father Asa, he exterminated. (2 Kings 23:7 NRSV) He broke down the houses of the male temple prostitutes that were in the house of the LORD, where the women did weaving for Asherah. Note: During the apostasy of Israel ritual prostitution became common and part of the ceremonies associated with the pagan religions that largely took over from YHWH worship at that time. Temple prostitutes were forbidden in the law. Their establishment by some kings was seen as a great act of wickedness and the extermination of these homosexual prostitutes as an act of righteousness. The condemnation was partly because they helped promote idolatry and partly because they were homosexual. Effeminacy and the "Gay Lifestyle" (Deuteronomy 22:5 NKJV) "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the LORD your God. Note: Cross-dressing and the camp lifestyle are displeasing to God. Homosexual Communities (Genesis 19:1-11 NRSV) The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed down with his face to the ground. {2} He said, "Please, my lords, turn aside to your servant's house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you can rise early and go on your way." They said, "No; we will spend the night in the square." {3} But he urged them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. {4} But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; {5} and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, so that we may know them." {6} Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, {7} and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. {8} Look, I have two daughters who have not known a man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof." {9} But they replied, "Stand back!" And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them." Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near the door to break it down. {10} But the men inside reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. {11} And they struck with blindness the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great, so that they were unable to find the door. [Later on in that chapter.....(Genesis 19:22-28 NRSV) Hurry, escape there, for I can do nothing until you arrive there." Therefore the city was called Zoar. {23} The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar. {24} Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven; {25} and he overthrew those cities, and all the Plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. {26} But Lot's wife, behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. {27} Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD; {28} and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the Plain and saw the smoke of the land going up like the smoke of a furnace.] (Judges 19:22-25 NRSV) While they were enjoying themselves, the men of the city, a perverse lot, surrounded the house, and started pounding on the door. They said to the old man, the master of the house, "Bring out the man who came into your house, so that we may have intercourse with him." {23} And the man, the master of the house, went out to them and said to them, "No, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. Since this man is my guest, do not do this vile thing. {24} Here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do whatever you want to them; but against this man do not do such a vile thing." {25} But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine, and put her out to them. They wantonly raped her, and abused her all through the night until the morning. And as the dawn began to break, they let her go. [Later that chapter and the next...(Judges 19:30 - 20:11 NKJV) And so it was that all who saw it said, "No such deed has been done or seen from the day that the children of Israel came up from the land of Egypt until this day. Consider it, confer, and speak up!" . So all the children of Israel came out, from Dan to Beersheba, as well as from the land of Gilead, and the congregation gathered together as one man before the LORD at Mizpah. {2} And the leaders of all the people, all the tribes of Israel, presented themselves in the assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand foot soldiers who drew the sword. {3} (Now the children of Benjamin heard that the children of Israel had gone up to Mizpah.) Then the children of Israel said, "Tell us, how did this wicked deed happen?" {4} So the Levite, the husband of the woman who was murdered, answered and said, "My concubine and I went into Gibeah, which belongs to Benjamin, to spend the night. {5} "And the men of Gibeah rose against me, and surrounded the house at night because of me. They intended to kill me, but instead they ravished my concubine so that she died. {6} "So I took hold of my concubine, cut her in pieces, and sent her throughout all the territory of the inheritance of Israel, because they committed lewdness and outrage in Israel. {7} "Look! All of you are children of Israel; give your advice and counsel here and now!" {8} So all the people arose as one man, saying, "None of us will go to his tent, nor will any turn back to his house; {9} "but now this is the thing which we will do to Gibeah: We will go up against it by lot. {10} "We will take ten men out of every hundred throughout all the tribes of Israel, a hundred out of every thousand, and a thousand out of every ten thousand, to make provisions for the people, that when they come to Gibeah in Benjamin, they may repay all the vileness that they have done in Israel." {11} So all the men of Israel were gathered against the city, united together as one man......(The city was eventually totally destroyed and everyone in it killed)] Note: Both these homosexual communities became so enmeshed in homosexual lust that homosexual rape was accepted as a part of their communal lifestyle. It had reached the point where there was no contrition for actions of violence towards strangers including group rape and insistence on homosexual intercourse with visitors. Such aggressively homosexual communities incurred firstly God's direct judgment (Sodom and Gomorrah) and secondly His judgment mediated through the courts of Israel (Gibeah). SUMMARY Homosexual actions, lusts, and lifestyle are seen as unsuitable for Christians and wrong in God's sight. Both lesbianism and homosexuality are included in Scriptures condemnation. The more outrageous forms of homosexuality such as homosexual prostitution and homosexual communities consumed by homosexual lusts bring direct judgment from God. Homosexual lusts are seen as a sign that a person has departed far from God and are normally judged by God in two ways: 1) A darkening of the mind and spirit. 2) Disease "receiving the due penalty (death) in their bodies...." (Romans 1:26-28). Homosexual actions are seen as being among the great crimes such as slave trading, con-artistry and murder. (1 Timothy 1:8-11). Therefore homosexuality is out of place for the Christian. However homosexuals are not beyond the reach of God's salvation and they can be redeemed, washed, sanctified and justified like everyone else upon repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ.(Acts 2:38-40) IF YOU ARE IMPRISONED BY THIS LIFESTYLE , MAY GODS LOVE AND ANOINTING LIBERATE AND SET YOU FREE IN JESUS NAME.

so sad

we need to pray for her.

I stopped cold turkey a week ago and it really is beginning to hit me right now. My companion says I will not keep going but I am so determined on this I won't fail. recently I began feeling aches inside my abdomen and I really need a puff. I don't give in given that I am stopping for my kid. I am lucky to have the electric cigarette. It has been beneficial to me.